Jan 25, 2022
Have you deconstructed the pay-to-play algorithm? We haven’t either, but we’re close! In this episode, Anne & Laya discuss the evolution of P2P’s from a talent-client connection tool to the modern algorithmic matching game. They share how to use P2P’s as a learning tool, how to build them into your business model, and why they have such a polarizing reputation…
Transcript
>> It’s time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry’s top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let’s welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.
Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza along with my very, very special guest cohost Laya Hoffman.
Laya: Hey Anne.
Anne: Good morning, Laya. How are you?
Laya: Good morning. It's chilly and the a -- in the dirty south, but I'm hanging in there. Glad to be back talking with you, of course. We always have such great conversations these days. I'm loving it.
Anne: Yeah. That we do. And I wanted to kind of talk a little bit. We had talked last episode about casting, and we touched upon pay-to-plays --
Laya: Yes.
Anne: -- and that's always such a big topic in the voiceover land.
Laya: Sure is.
Anne: And I thought that it would be something that we could talk about today and just share our experiences that we've had, successes, I don't know, fails. Yeah. Let's let's chat about pay-to-play, shall we?
Laya: We shall. I have quite a bit of experience. I think I have like a modern mindset perspective on pay-to-plays. So it'd be a great fit for our theme, right?
Anne: Let's go from the old mindset first, because I --
Laya: Okay.
Anne: -- back in the day, I swear it was like back in 2000-something when Voice123 came onto the scene. I was an early, early adopter of that.
Laya: As was I.
Anne: Yep, and I remember having quite a bit of success with Voice123. I actually really loved the model because it allowed me to upload all my demos and samples and basically get job opportunities from different clients. And there was basically no interference. I got to have the opportunity from the client, communicate with the client, book a job with a client. And then actually a lot of times the client would just then come to me without necessarily having to go through Voice123 for the next job. So I kind of liked that. It was a win situation I think for all of us because I paid a membership fee to Voice123, and I got my job. And then every once in a while, if I had repeat clients, they would come back to me, not necessarily having to go through Voice123, but it wouldn't have even mattered to be honest with you, because if they favorited me, they didn't have to audition again. So it just worked out really well. And it has certainly evolved over the years. It's been a good 15 or so years now of pay-to-plays being on the scene. There are so many more of them.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: But I found them to be extremely lucrative in the beginning when I started. And now I've got a different opinion, but let me hear about your -- let's hear about your experience --
Laya: Sure.
Anne: -- in the beginning with pay-to-plays.
Laya: Yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, as we've mentioned before, you know, I really only dove in full time about three years ago, but I'd always been doing voice work. And I was an early adopter of Voice123 as well. I've been a member since 2011, so over 10 years. And that was just back when it was kind of toying with this cool, you know, I mean, everything on the web seemed to be fresh and new.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: And they were among the first to kind of harness the power of connecting talent with buyers. Right? And so how great. They made it easy, they kind of one-stop shopped it, and they didn't get in your way. And the price was fair because there wasn't a whole lot of reach.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: I mean, we all know how this has evolved over the last few years, especially. It's been a different experience for a lot of people, but I had the same experience you did early on. And then I kind of went dormant for several years. Didn't really put a whole lot of effort in, but on occasion I would still get hit up even with my like really crappy samples back then. I didn't know what I was doing. And so it was kind of a nice lead source, right? Lead gen for me.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely.
Laya: And I think it was for a lot of people. So I'm glad you share the same sentiment.
Anne: Yeah. Now, I think it's fair to say that any pay-to-play, no matter what, seems to be a game of having really great demos and not just one of them uploaded on a pay-to-play.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: I think all of the pay-to-plays subscribed to that. The more samples that you have -- because it's all a matching game. It's all a search algorithm and a matching game. And that's kind of like the secret of Google, but in pay-to-plays, right?
Laya: Yeah, yeah.
Anne: We all were trying to debug the algorithm so that we could get the opportunities sooner and faster and get more of those either likes or stars on the system. And I just remember probably going back maybe close to eight to ten years ago, people started then having classes on here's how to optimize your experience, right? Or this is what you want to -- kind of like how to optimize your profile on a pay-to-play.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: So for BOSSes out there, I want to say that pay-to-plays are absolutely a part of this industry. They're not going away anytime soon.
Laya: Nope, that's right.
Anne: And I do believe that they are part of your opportunities that you need to look out for when you are trying to get business and grow your voiceover business.
Laya: Yeah. I would agree with you, Anne, and I actually -- you know, there is such a negative connotation about pay-to-plays, whether people are on -- I will wrap the Fiverrs of the world into the pay-to-play model, just because in a way you are optimizing a profile.
Anne: Yup.
Laya: You're using somebody else's house to promote your business --
Anne: Yup.
Laya: -- as opposed to just doing it yourself on your own website, your own LinkedIn page, et cetera. But I think no matter how you cut your marketing pie and your opportunity pie, you got to eat from each of those sections, especially in the beginning just to get your footing. Right?
Anne: Absolutely.
Laya: Just to kind of understand what is out there, what types of reads suit you best, where you sit. I mean, I said it on a previous episode and it's absolutely true, although I'm not entirely proud of it. Early on the pay-to-plays to me were practice ground.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: And I know that's not the popular way to think of those things because you are putting yourself out there, and it's important that you do so with dignity and grace and respect and present a professional profile, no matter what, but that's how I learned some things --
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: -- in the privacy of my home, in my studio, in my mic, my Skid Row Studios.
Anne: And you know what I understand the thought process of here you are putting yourself out there and maybe you're not putting yourself out there with the best foot forward, but at some point you do have to put yourself out there, and your very first time that you put your voice out there, it's not going to be optimal. And so I think where else, right? Whereas I think a better place -- and I'm not saying that you're going to learn, I think probably more by doing it in kind of an open marketplace, and here's the deal. There's always, there's always clients out there. Right?
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: And so the one client that might hear your sample and says, "oh, you know, that's not up to par" or maybe they hear your audition, and they're like, "oh no, that's not" -- I mean, the one thing that you don't want is maybe a negative rating because that will hurt you on the pay-to-plays. You don't want to have people --
Laya: For sure.
Anne: -- saying things, but I don't think in the normal run of things that somebody's gonna rate you -- well, they might rate you poorly or write a note and say, well, I would never hire this person.
Laya: No.
Anne: I think that in the grand scheme of things, that doesn't happen, and I would consider it an investment in your business, an investment to finding out here are the types of jobs that are available out there and get yourself used to the different styles. I think once you've coached, you've created your demos, and you're not actively out there coaching, you may not see the current relevant scripts or styles that are out there and being hired. So I think that's --
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: -- so important to do that. So I think pay-to-plays are definitely something that you should have in your toolbox. And like you said, you're paying to play in someone else's house. I prefer always to have the control in my house, but you know, when you're first starting, I think you have to just create as many opportunities as you can.
Laya: Yeah. I would agree with that. And the other thing I like about pay-to-plays that I don't think we talk enough about is the opportunity to learn from others. You know, you can go onto voices.com, not as a member and not have a profile yourself --
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: -- and just learn from the top tier talent that are booking every week. You know, they've got their top tens in female, in male, top 100 this month, you know, biggest earners, top 10. And you can go scrub through those profiles --
Anne: Listen. Yup.
Laya: -- and learn by listening --
Anne: Yup.
Laya: -- and by reading how they optimize or how they describe their voice or vocal tone, some of their capabilities, some of their sound-alikes, you know, and that in itself, I think every profile on every one of these pay-to-play opportunities, there is something to learn there, if you're willing to take the time with open eyes and an open mind to really see what everyone else is bringing to the table. And that way you can learn, whether you're a VO pro or you're a novice, there's always something to learn from these sites. So if we can scrub off the negative connotation on these and really just use them as a learning vehicle, whether it's a practice vehicle or just learning by watching and listening, then there's definitely something to gain whether you're a member or not.
Anne: Yeah. And speaking of the negative connotations for, I dunno, BOSSes just starting out in the industry, there are some online casting pay-to-plays that do not have the best of reputations. And I think if you were to research any of the voiceover groups and do a search for the particular name of the pay-to-play that you might be researching, you'll find lots and lots and lots of discussion about that.
Laya: Yes.
Anne: And I think it becomes a personal decision. So just in a nutshell, some of the pay-to-plays have been found to be maybe unscrupulous, maybe some business practices that may not align with what others may think as being ethical. And so I think it really, it really comes down to you. This is your business and you choose who you want to do business with.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: So I would say before you invest in any of the pay-to-plays, make sure you're doing some research on which ones you're interested in and see what other people are saying. There's a lot of people saying a couple of these are definitely not practicing ethical business practices. So if you want to align yourself with that business or not, I think that's a personal decision.
Laya: I would agree with that. And you brought up a great point. I don't think enough VO talent use that search resource within voiceover specific groups on Facebook, for instance. You can literally type in Voice123 --
Anne: Yup.
Laya: -- or Voices or Fiverr or any -- VO Planet, any of the names, the big names. Before you buy your membership, do yourself a favor and scrub those pages, those groups for those keywords, because everybody has done the -- done the work for you.
Anne: Yup.
Laya: Trust me, there's probably a million, and everybody's got an opinion, you know.
Anne: Sure do.
Laya: Form your own by reading and taking it with a grain of salt, reading between the lines a little bit, because that's not for us to just go -- we can spend months talking about that.
Anne: Oh yeah.
Laya: And then we're not here for that. Just as a guide to say, there are resources out there that'll give you a look behind the curtain --
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: -- and plenty of conversations around this. And again, just do what's best for your business. So I'm happy to share what I've done that's best for mine, if you want to talk about it or we can dive in a little bit.
Anne: Yeah, well, I think one thing I just want to tap off of what you just said is it is all about your business. And I always have my favorite saying, and that is mind your own business, not --
Laya: Yes.
Anne: -- you know, not into additional sense of, but you need to mind your own business and what's good for you in terms of how you want to invest, how you want to align yourself, how you're going to get those job opportunities, because you know, voiceover is an amazing career. However, it's not an amazing career when you don't have any jobs. So --
Laya: Yeah, yeah.
Anne: -- this is a major component of that. And I'll just start off by saying currently now over the years, I've evolved. Thankfully, gratefully I've evolved where I have a nice customer base. I have a nice set of returning customers. I do some direct marketing, and we had talked about that previously as well. And I am a member of a couple of pay-to-plays. However, I'm gratefully busy enough that I don't have time to always audition for them, but they remain in my pocket for times when maybe the job opportunities are on the low side so that I can always, oh, let me go ahead and audition for this. Let's see what happens.
Laya: Right.
Anne: So I have some good experiences with a couple that I feel are aligned with my business, ideals and practices, and they kind of sit there at the ready for me.
Laya: And I think not only are they a resource to tap into when you need them or when you've got a little extra time, especially as you evolved your voiceover business. I'm kind of getting to the same point as well. And I'm super grateful for that.
Anne: Yup.
Laya: But I also keep those profiles optimized --
Anne: Yes.
Laya: -- and present because their SEO beats the heck out of mine.
Anne: Yup, well, absolutely.
Laya: And I can never put as much advertising into my own business to outweigh the SEO that, let's say, a Voice123 does. They put all their money into that. And they really own the market share in a lot of ways. Now, there are some talent, yourself as one of them, that have incredible SEO and have managed to really make huge leaps and bounds in that area. But for me, who doesn't spend a lot of money or time optimizing my personal site, not as much as I probably could, I use them for a search. You know, I'm just another great voice that they can find in search as part of the --
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: -- bigger marketplace of buyers looking.
Anne: Well, have you seen, if you do a Google search for anything voiceover, the first results that show up are all the voiceover pay-to-plays.
Laya: Yes.
Anne: And that's because every member has some form of the word voiceover in their profile --
Laya: Yup, that's right.
Anne: -- we -- you --
Laya: We've done it.
Anne: -- probably couldn't pay enough. Although Fiverr has certainly paid, like I remember, gosh, they've been paying Google ads forever for voiceovers. So if you search for anything voiceover, one of the top results that will show up is Fiverr. So it is an SEO kind of search game. And just as you said, as you optimize your profile -- which that was always a key element, a key strategy. When you are part of a pay-to-play, you want to make sure that you have a profile that is searchable and that can show up when -- when a client wants to find a voice that is compassionate or has experience in, let's say, healthcare or technical. So you want to make sure that that profile is optimized to react to those searches. And there are lots and lots of classes on these and that you can take, if you want some help with that. Laya, I think you mentioned to me before you had taken a class on how to optimize your profile for pay-to-plays.
Laya: Yeah, I sure did. You know, I, it's a tough thing to talk about yourself. When you really put your fingers on the keyboard and you really have got to start to identify what your sample sound is described as, or how do you talk about yourself as a -- from a bio?
Anne: Sure.
Laya: Do you -- is it first person? Is it third person? That sometimes can be a really big block for us creatives because I'm not a copywriter. And certainly I could tell somebody else what they sound like, but it's really hard to narrow down in your own mind what your samples sound like --
Anne: Oh, so true.
Laya: -- and how they stack against anybody else that might be in your same space. And so I found a really great resource in two fellow voice talent, Katherine Toll, and Natasha Marchesky. I hope I'm pronouncing her last name correctly, but they do a service. I think it's called VO Pros or --
Anne: V123 Pros, I believe.
Laya: Yeah. V123 Pros.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: And they offered like a, a short course and it was peer-led. Of course they were helping us with that and really trying to figure out how to curate and cultivate keywords that made sense for your voice print. And everyone got to participate together, listening to each other's and then providing feedback. I found that to be incredibly eyeopening because it is so hard to describe your own voice.
Anne: Sure, sure.
Laya: So that's where I started. And then it was so beneficial and so eye opening to me because of course, I am a member of Voice123 and Voices, and I was able to apply those same key words not just on my pay-to-play profiles but on my own website.
Anne: Website.
Laya: Yeah, and so that, I was able to use that information a plethora of ways. And I was so impressed by the process, I actually hired those two talented ladies to optimize my profile one-on-one and just let me take my hands off the wheel because we were going to crash, and it really paid off. So yeah.
Anne: It does help. It does help to have another set of ears listening --
Laya: Yes.
Anne: -- to you and helping to brand you. I mean, that's just every day when I'm working with students that I'm vocally branding them --
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: -- because it's very hard to brand yourself, as you mentioned.
Laya: Yes, it is.
Anne: And it does help to have others' ears and eyes. And I'll tell you what, one of the most popular podcasts, by the way, BOSS podcasts to this date even is Bad-Ass BOSS Bios.
Laya: Oh yeah.
Anne: So you can check that out. Yeah. Do a search on that. We have a template that can help you to write your bio. This bio was intended for everything, your website, profiles, and it's how to write your bio better. And those BOSSes out there that are thinking of parallel income streams and multiple passion-preneurs that you are, if you're good at writing, and you're good at writing bios, here's a nice side business for you.
Laya: Yeah, it is. Oh my gosh.
Anne: Because so many people just don't know what to write or it's very difficult. And so that I would say is a great little sideline business.
Laya: Oh, I love that. Yeah. I might need the template myself, because it is, it's hard to kind of present yourself to the world. You know, you get nervous, you get a little anxious, and you want to make sure that you're using, of course, proper punctuation --
Anne: Sure, absolutely.
Laya: -- and the right descriptive words, and you're not totally over yourself or underselling yourself.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: That's a big thing too. And so I loved what they were able to curate for my voiceprint. And I've applied that, like I said, to not only my profiles, but my website --
Anne: Yep.
Laya: - so much, so is as soon as we flipped the switch on my profile, and it was optimized fully, I got hit up directly by a very, very nice paying client without even auditioning. So it essentially paid for itself. And that was a win for me. Now, I know that's, you know, maybe not the case in every situation, but that really took a big burden off of my shoulders.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: And like we talked about earlier, you know, if you can't do it, outsource it, and those, those two really helped me out. So that was one way to win on pay-to-plays for me. But I found some other ways over the years too. So.
Anne: Well, I do want to make a mention that even if you're not a member of the pay-to-play or we'll just go back and retouch on this topic. If it wasn't evident before, go ahead and create a profile, a free profile --
Laya: Oh yeah.
Anne: -- because that just helps you in terms of -- the more SEO you can get online, the better.
Laya: Yep.
Anne: So if you can create a free profile, I say, go ahead. I mean, it just makes you available and out there on more search engines. So definitely make sure that you're creating those profiles. I think I had a free profile on a couple of them, and I got direct inquiries from them. So, and I got jobs --
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: -- without even necessarily having to belong to the pay-to-play. So that was always a good thing.
Laya: That's right. Yeah, sure is, Anne. And I don't think people realize that enough. They're like, God, I got to pay for a membership?
Anne: Yup.
Laya: Well, yes. And I would say this. For me, my business strategy is if there is going to be an opportunity where I'm going to invest, I want to invest all in at this --
Anne: Sure.
Laya: -- point in my business.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: I want that premium or that platinum level membership. Because even if, like you mentioned, even if I'm not contributing and doing the auditions on a regular basis, that's going to optimize my visibility to be the cream of the crop when other buyers are looking for voices. So while I may not be active on these sites, at least my profile is hitting --
Anne: Sure.
Laya: -- the first rung in search. And I find that in itself to be a huge value and actually pay for the cost of, you know, the party. Right?
Anne: Right, right.
Laya: So if you can even get one client out of that, then you may have paid for your year subscription or whatever.
Anne: Yeah, absolutely.
Laya: And that's something to consider.
Anne: Now, you mentioned that there are different levels and that is something -- of these pay-to-plays -- that is something that as of late, right, all of the pay-to-plays, I believe, have kind of taken on this -- well, okay. There was a one membership fee that, you know, for many years you paid one membership fee. And then eventually over the years, I think the majority of them started creating these levels of membership.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: And so I think that's where it started for me to really think, whoa, now I see where -- before it was just like, oh, okay. A membership, you know, they make a profit, I get jobs. I make a profit. And I felt like we were on a level playing ground. Then when pay-to-plays became, I don't know, maybe the voiceover industry grew, and they became more competitive with one another. And then they started creating these levels. I thought, huh, I see. I wonder how these levels are actually working, because here's the deal. I love having control over my business. So when somebody is playing around with an algorithm, right --
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: -- and saying, okay, if you pay another amount, you're going to get listed higher in the search engines or you'll get the jobs earlier. Then it really, I start really thinking about, well, I have no control over how they're judging when I'm getting an audition or not.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: And will I be first on the list? But it became this kind of race to buy the platinum memberships or buy the high level memberships that would get you the auditions quicker so that you could get the opportunities quicker. And I think for a while, it actually was something that worked for some people. And I think some people, they did not see results. And so all that kind of discussion that started happening made me start to question, okay, so how are these working? My technical brain, 'cause you know, I used to work in technology, started spinning and saying, oh, what are they really doing to get me better opportunities? So I did join a platinum level back in the day. And I did find that I got more opportunities. However, I was so busy that I couldn't take advantage of it as much, which was silly because I paid a lot of money. But I do believe that up to a certain point, paying for those levels and upgrading those levels does give you a better shot. However, I don't know how much control you have over that. I don't know, Laya.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: What are your thoughts about that?
Laya: You know, I feel the same way. It's really, it feels icky, right, when anybody's got their hand out or in your pocket, and you're a solo-preneur.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: You're -- you own your business. And every bit of that investment needs to kind of be cross-checked.
Anne: Yeah, yeah.
Laya: And if you're not getting the value, and that's not working for your business model, then you know, it's not for you. And that's okay. None of these solutions are for everybody.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: As far as the tiers go for me, there was a point in my career that I had the time, that I wasn't seeing a unique opportunities for my agents, and that the marketing efforts weren't bringing in as regular of bookable opportunities as I would have liked. I was on some production houses, et cetera. But so I really leaned into those, into Voice123 primarily, but Voices as well. And you know, I think what's interesting about those is I did notice a huge change when up-leveled as far as opportunities. I also got a lot of direct bookings that way.
Anne: Myself too.
Laya: Yep. And then private invites, if you're on Voices, by some of account managers. And I think it, depending on if you can book them will depend on whether or not those costs are justified.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: I personally saw a huge increase. And so I stayed at those levels. Now, I've since dropped down because the opportunities in my business is just busier, just like you mentioned, and I don't have time to audition, but I still do prefer more visibility from those premium levels on those sites.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: If I'm going to be there, I want to be at the top, and it's paid off in different ways. It's very hard to really gauge it. And you're a numbers person too. You're technical.
Anne: Yep.
Laya: So you want to- --
Anne: Oh, yeah.
Laya: -- you want to see the ROI.
Anne: Oh, definitely.
Laya: It's very hard to gauge, but if you've been on them long enough and you've made a jump either up or down, I think it's pretty clear that the opportunities go where the levels do. And it's unfortunate they're doing that, but hey, they're business just like we are.
Anne: Absolutely. And I think it's important to include them as opportunities. And now of course, I also include them for opportunities because I like to consider myself an educator in this industry. And so for me, it's also, it's an investment in an experience, right? So I can't tell you how many times, I mean, I've wanted to just join all of the pay-to-plays because I want to have that individual experience that I can then share with my students or share with people in the industry to say, here's my experience, because you know, we all like to help each other and lift each other up --
Laya: Yep.
Anne: -- in this game. So I'm never one to judge anymore about which pay-to-play. That was a thing too, where there was like some public shaming if --
Laya: Yep.
Anne: -- if you belong to one or another. But again, I'm of the thought that we should mind our own businesses and look, who am I to judge someone else if they're going to put food on the table.
Laya: And that's just --
Anne: That's just not --
Laya: Yep, that's right.
Anne: -- my thing.
Laya: That's what it comes down to. And one of the things I heard out there, and again, we don't want to get into it, but is that some agents wouldn't sign you on --
Anne: Yes.
Laya: -- if you had placement on some of these pay-to-plays.
Anne: I had heard too.
Laya: That's something to consider if that's part of your end game strategy.
Anne: Yep, yeah.
Laya: For me, I want to be with a partner that has my best interest and --
Anne: Sure.
Laya: -- sometimes, if they can't feed me, I got to eat somewhere.
Anne: Yeah, exactly.
Laya: So until they can fully pay my entire mortgage and put food --
Anne: Sure.
Laya: -- on my family's table, I got to do what is best for my business. And for me, it was seeing some of those opportunities.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: Now I will say, when it comes to the scrutiny, whether it's, there's hearsay about are these digital models pulling down the overall rates in the industry?
Anne: Yes, that's a big indus- -- that's a big discussion.
Laya: Exactly. And you know what I have to say about that? I think if you're a strong business person and you know what the standard rates are, it's very easy. Everyone can go to the GVAA --
Anne: Yep.
Laya: - and weigh their own rates or their ideas about a project against the rate guide.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: And if you really want to stay true to that, which I do, then I only take a look or auditioned for the opportunities that are in alignment --
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: -- with the standard industry rates.
Anne: Absolutely. And that is always a choice. So glad you said that because --
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: -- it is a choice. No matter what pay-to-play platform you're on or whoever you're working with, it is a choice where to put your value, which is why it comes down to know your worth, know your value.
Laya: Right.
Anne: Even on Fiverr, you can, you know what I mean? There's a way to set your value.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: And as you mentioned, it is a real thing. There are some agents that will refuse to necessarily look your way if you are involved. And that is with some of the pay-to-plays because that is a brand alignment. And that is something as a business --
Laya: Sure.
Anne: -- you make that choice, whether you want to align your brand with another brand. And that's why, again, it's that whole kind of -- it's another level of control that's removed from you. If you are choosing to align yourself with a pay-to-play, then make sure that your business and ethical values line up together. And you know what? It is a real thing to other people that may affect your career, agents, casting directors, production houses, they may make a judgment based upon your affiliation. And so that is something to absolutely consider whether or not you want to do that. But at the end of the day, right, we all have the choice of what to do and come on, I'm going to get very real and very honest. Back in the day when I was just starting out in the industry, like, as you mentioned, sometimes we used the pay-to-plays to kind of practice. Sometimes we used to understand the industry better. And a lot of times, well, you know, in the beginning, I might've taken jobs that were under the GVAA rate guide.
Laya: For sure.
Anne: I'm just going to admit it. I think we all do. It's like one of those things that you hide and that you don't ever, just don't mention it because there are people out there saying don't bring the value of the industry down. And I get that.
Laya: Of course.
Anne: But here's the deal. It's going to happen in every industry, not just ours.
Laya: Yeah.
Anne: There's always the bottom feeders. And so, you know, it's nice to say we band together, and we know our worth. I think that's the general moral, like, takeaway from that is just know your worth. Know that you're worth more than if you're like, oh my God, I should only because I'm just beginning charge a little bit. No, you know, you've made an investment in your career. You are worth just as much as me, who's had 20 years experience, I'm just saying, when it comes down to it, so know your worth. I think that's the most important thing, and pay-to-plays, they're a viable option, viable option for you, BOSSes.
Laya: Yeah. You can make your choices. You know, you don't have to audition for everything.
Anne: Yep.
Laya: You don't have to put your name in the hat for everything. Just like you don't have to audition for everything that your agent sends. Just like you don't have to say yes to every opportunity a client brings you.
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: It's really your choice and who is anybody else to judge on whether or not that makes sense for your business. So I'm so glad we talked about this.
Anne: Me too.
Laya: I feel like there are many different avenues when it comes to pay-to-plays. I think like we summed up, it all comes down to doing what's best for your business --
Anne: Yeah.
Laya: -- at the time. And the, you know, the pace that's right for your business.
Anne: Sure.
Laya: -- and for all of us, that's different. So it was a great conversation.
Anne: Yeah. We could probably, we could probably go on and on and on about this, but yeah.
Laya: Yes.
Anne: Awesome conversation, BOSSes. So those pay-to-plays are an option for you. Again, do what's best for you and your business. And hey, I'd like to give a great, big shout-out to another business who is upping my value here and upping our value for the VO BOSS podcast. And that is ipDTL. You guys can learn to connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week --
Laya: Yes.
Anne: -- and we'll see you next week.
Laya: Thanks.
Anne: Bye.
Laya: Bye-bye.
>> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.