Aug 29, 2023
Anne is joined by special guest Gillian Pelkonen to pull back
the curtain on what it's like to be women in male-dominated
industries. They candidly share their experiences, from the
challenges and microaggressions they faced, to the emotional weight
of feeling valued for their gender over their skills. But it's not
all about the struggle. They also highlight the power of a strong
support network and share inspiring stories of women who have stood
tall in the face of adversity. Drawing from Gillian’s unique
insights in the music industry and Anne’s working in tech, this
episode is a deep dive into resilience, recognition, and the
pursuit of equality. Tune in and join the conversation.
Anne Ganguzza:
Hey everyone, welcome to the V.O. Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne
Genguza, and today I am excited to bring back special guest, audio
engineer, musician, and all around tech guru, Gillian Pelkonen to
the podcast. Yay,
Gillian:
Hello,
Anne Ganguzza:
Gillian!
Gillian:
Hi. Like so excited to talk and I feel like it's been forever since
we got on and got to chat.
Anne Ganguzza:
I know, I know. And I am so glad to have you here today. And you
know, after introducing you as, because every time I talk with you,
I experience something new that you know.
Gillian:
I'm sorry.
Anne Ganguzza:
And just, it's just, you're just, you're amazing, Gillian, if I'm
just gonna say
Gillian:
Oh,
Anne Ganguzza:
that, you're amazing.
Gillian:
thank you.
Anne Ganguzza:
And I was thinking about this today. I was thinking about this
today. I want to talk to you because I feel like you and I are,
females in male-dominated fields. Because before I got into
voiceover and demo production, I worked as a design engineer.
And
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
then after that, I was in technology. And so I've always been
working in male-dominated fields. And you, of course, being in the
music industry and audio engineer, I think we've probably got a few
similar experiences. And I think I'd love to talk to you about
that.
Gillian:
Yeah, I would love to talk to you as well because I mean, I've only
been working for a couple years. I know that you're probably been
working for a while and so obviously I'd love to talk to you
because Thankfully, I think we have similar but different
experiences because all of the work that you've done throughout
your life has made my life easier and the trickle down and I just
love talking to women mostly because I never see women every time I
see a woman I'm like, oh my gosh could I hunkie you?
Like
Anne Ganguzza:
Ha
Gillian:
I
Anne Ganguzza:
ha
Gillian:
never
Anne Ganguzza:
ha!
Gillian:
just men all the time or like a woman
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
non-binary person whatever because it's really is
true.
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
There's um some statistics I was reading There's a really good
article and research that was done I don't remember who but maybe I
I'll put it in the show notes, that between producers and audio
engineers, women make up 3% and they group producers and audio
engineers
Anne Ganguzza:
Wow.
Gillian:
together within the music industry.
Anne Ganguzza:
Wow,
Gillian:
Is that crazy?
Anne Ganguzza:
that's so small.
Gillian:
I
Anne Ganguzza:
That
Gillian:
know.
Anne Ganguzza:
is crazy.
Gillian:
I know.
Anne Ganguzza:
And I know so many talented females. And
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I just know, I mean, look, I'm going to be honest with you. When
people ask me about my career trajectory, I talk about when I went
to college. And I've always been interested in technical and geeky
things. I did pretty well in school and so I was encouraged to go
into engineering.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I went to college and studied mechanical engineering and actually
was like one of three females in the entire class that was studying
engineering. I
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
grew up in a very small town and so I thought I would always talk
about my geeky interests and the fact that I was the only girl that
was in wood shop or those things. I always thought, well, it's
because I come from a small town. But then when I went to college,
and I was in a bigger population, I thought to myself, wow, I
really kind of am in a smaller minority
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
in my engineering class because again, there's like three of us.
And as a matter of fact, only one ended up graduating the program.
I actually transferred into another engineering program
and
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
graduated with a degree in computer graphics engineering. So when I
got out of school, got a job as a design engineer for an orthopedic
company. And thus began my corporate experience of being a female
in probably a predominantly male-oriented field. And it was tough.
It was really tough because there's, first of all, you don't have a
lot of other females to, I guess, bond with about your job. And so.
The few that are there, it seemed were, how do I put it, we're all
very protective and all very, I think because people who have
already been in that situation, I think protective of, protective
of your job, protective of maybe your skill set in a
way
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
because it was either being, I don't know. challenged
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
or being, yeah, I'm going to say challenged for lack
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
of a better word, but being challenged. And so it was really hard
for me to find my footing. And,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
you know, after that, you know, again, without going through my
entire history, I worked in technology. I got out of engineering.
Being an engineer in the late 80s was tough. And
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I'm not, you know, I constantly say that I'm not bitter. And I
really
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
wasn't because I was young and I was excited and I loved what I
did. And I felt like the fact that I was kind of a smaller minority
in the engineering group made me better at what I
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
did because I think I had to work harder and we can talk about that
with you. I think working hard is kind of like, I've always been
used to working hard anyways,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
but sometimes I feel like I might have to work. triple hard to
get
Gillian:
And you
Anne Ganguzza:
maybe
Gillian:
definitely
Anne Ganguzza:
the same recognition.
Gillian:
did. It's like totally
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
not unreasonable to say that you would have had to, just to be
taken as seriously as everybody
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
else.
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah,
Gillian:
It's
Anne Ganguzza:
yeah.
Gillian:
such a
Anne Ganguzza:
You know,
Gillian:
crazy
Anne Ganguzza:
and after that,
Gillian:
story, yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
yeah, and then after that, I spent 20 years in technology, which
again was another male-dominated field. And so I was constantly
being passed by to my male peers because they thought that they
were in charge.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
And so, again, you know, it was just one of those things where I
literally... worked my tushy off. And I feel not quite as much, but
I also feel like in the voiceover industry, to be a demo producer,
a female demo producer, is there's not a lot of them out
there.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
And again, I feel like it's something that I feel like I work very
hard at and very proud at it. And I'm very proud of being a demo
producer. I love what I do. But let's talk about you. I mean, my
goodness.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I mean, first of all, being as young as you are and as successful
as you are, but I know that you must have gone through a lot of the
same experiences as I did in the music industry and
Gillian:
I have
Anne Ganguzza:
in engineering.
Gillian:
to say, I'm still going through it, and unfortunately, I hope not,
but I assume I'll be going through it for the rest of my life, and
really from talking with other women of various ages. And I really
do look up to a lot of other older women because
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
they've gone through it and they can really mentor me. And I feel
like between... the no matter what age you are, I just find so much
camaraderie and people who really want to mentor me and help me.
But the one thing I can say about my experience is that I never
feel physically unsafe, which I know was not the case
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
for many people, which is a really scary thing to think about. And
I always try to acknowledge that like I have these struggles and I
want to talk about my experiences, but the fact that like I go into
work and I don't feel physically unsafe is really cool. And it's an
insane sentence to have to say, but I know from other people's
experiences. things used to be a lot more outright and a lot more
pointed and really
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm.
Gillian:
mean and the whole point was to be like this is our space and we
don't want you here and so we're gonna try to make it difficult for
you to stay here. I don't know if that was your
experience
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
but I've heard that that's kind of like
Anne Ganguzza:
You
Gillian:
what
Anne Ganguzza:
know,
Gillian:
happened.
Anne Ganguzza:
very interesting. Very interesting. I never had anybody, like, I
never, nobody said that directly. However,
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
I mean, now we're talking another area where there were other ways
to try to intimidate
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
me as a female, which lean, you know, toward a me too kind of a
thing,
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
where, you know, people are trying to show their power.
in
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
multiple ways. And I think as a female in a male-dominated field,
if you have those types of issues that happen,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
they're tough to navigate. Because again, if a woman is seen
complaining, or, you know, and that's the thing. I think we were
taught for so long to just maybe not say anything
because
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
we would be judged.
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
as bitter as, you know, it just, it's, that's, you know, we could,
God, we could have a hundred podcast episodes on that. And,
and
Gillian:
I know
Anne Ganguzza:
I think that
Gillian:
there's so
Anne Ganguzza:
over
Gillian:
many
Anne Ganguzza:
the
Gillian:
things.
Anne Ganguzza:
years, right? I mean, over the years, there's really just so many
different intimidation tactics
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
that are different in, from male to female.
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
or
Gillian:
And
Anne Ganguzza:
really
Gillian:
I...
Anne Ganguzza:
just anybody that's trying to get, and I don't even wanna say male,
female, but because it could be non-binary, it could
be
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
transgender, it could be a lot of different genders
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
that experience the same thing in a lot of
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
ways.
Gillian:
Yeah, and I
Anne Ganguzza:
And
Gillian:
heard
Anne Ganguzza:
I
Gillian:
this
Anne Ganguzza:
just...
Gillian:
uh... The tricky guy.
Anne Ganguzza:
Oh no, that's fine,
Gillian:
Okay.
Anne Ganguzza:
please.
Gillian:
Yeah, I
Anne Ganguzza:
Continue.
Gillian:
heard this amazing thing on a podcast that I listened to because
just for concision, to be concise. I'm gonna just say, you know,
man, woman, but I did hear this amazing thing where
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
someone who was having a similar conversation was like, when I say
woman, I mean someone who is not male, who is like within the
minority. So women, when
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
I'm saying it, I'm sure
Anne Ganguzza:
Okay.
Gillian:
when we're talking about it, encompasses like transgender people,
non-binary, and I know that that's not
Anne Ganguzza:
Yes,
Gillian:
their proper
Anne Ganguzza:
yes.
Gillian:
gender identity, but like in the discussion of like male, which is
the default of women which is like basically could be used to talk
about all those other people so I mean that's
Anne Ganguzza:
Yes,
Gillian:
I thought
Anne Ganguzza:
yes,
Gillian:
that
Anne Ganguzza:
no,
Gillian:
was cool
Anne Ganguzza:
thank
Gillian:
that
Anne Ganguzza:
you
Gillian:
someone
Anne Ganguzza:
for clarifying
Gillian:
said that
Anne Ganguzza:
that. I
Gillian:
yeah
Anne Ganguzza:
thought that
Gillian:
but
Anne Ganguzza:
was the one. Yeah,
Gillian:
I'm
Anne Ganguzza:
yeah,
Gillian:
just
Anne Ganguzza:
no,
Gillian:
my
Anne Ganguzza:
absolutely,
Gillian:
experience
Anne Ganguzza:
and I'm glad that...
Gillian:
as a woman that that's how I'm gonna talk about it because that's
how I feel
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
about myself but there's also whether or not like you're
Non-binary, if you are in a female presenting body, you do carry
the weight of
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
being treated like a woman, which I know is another thing
that
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm.
Gillian:
people who don't have that gender identity but get grouped in with
women and have that female experience.
Anne Ganguzza:
Sure.
Gillian:
It's such a complicated issue because really we're talking about
how other people perceive us, not really how we perceive ourselves
in any which way.
Anne Ganguzza:
Absolutely.
Gillian:
Or that's what I found.
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah,
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
no, I love that. You're right. It is about how people perceive
us
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
as opposed to how we perceive ourselves. And wow, that was just,
all right, we can go home now because that was
Gillian:
Ha
Anne Ganguzza:
just
Gillian:
ha
Anne Ganguzza:
really
Gillian:
ha!
Anne Ganguzza:
an amazing perceptive. That was so amazing
Gillian:
Hehehe
Anne Ganguzza:
and perceptive. I love that. And so, I guess, talk to
me
Gillian:
I
Anne Ganguzza:
a
Gillian:
kind
Anne Ganguzza:
little
Gillian:
of,
Anne Ganguzza:
bit
Gillian:
yeah,
Anne Ganguzza:
about
Gillian:
I never talked about
Anne Ganguzza:
maybe...
Gillian:
what
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah, I gotta
Gillian:
I,
Anne Ganguzza:
talk
Gillian:
I just keep
Anne Ganguzza:
to
Gillian:
making
Anne Ganguzza:
them.
Gillian:
all
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
these like blanket statements, but I should, I'll talk about my
specific experience.
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
briefly,
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
the whole reason that I got into doing what I do now, which is for
the most part audio engineering, assistant engineering,
freelancing, which I do as a pretty solitary activity, so it's not
like there's anything going on there.
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
But I was working in studios as an artist. I was recording. And I
was being paired with a lot of male engineers. And I actually had,
in all of college, all the engineers
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
I worked with, I had very positive experiences. one engineer who
was a woman and I was I just connected with her so well it was such
a great working relationship and Realistically, I just wanted more
control and knowledge about what I was doing because I love to
learn about what I'm interested in. But it was in the front of my
mind that there's now a lot of women. I've been doing this for four
years and I've been paired with all these men and only one woman
and it was my best experience. Like what if I could do that? I feel
like I can communicate with people well. All of these things that I
think sometimes is lacking in men, which is a complete
generalization when I say it and what I was thinking because I was
20 years old. at the time and I also thought well there's not that
many women so it'll be a great thing for me to try because there's
not many people like me. Sorry
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
my cat's acting up.
Anne Ganguzza:
Absolutely.
Gillian:
And so
Anne Ganguzza:
Oh,
Gillian:
I thought about that not...
Anne Ganguzza:
I understand that.
Gillian:
right? Not taking into account
Anne Ganguzza:
Yes,
Gillian:
that
Anne Ganguzza:
I do.
Gillian:
when I got into this male dominated field I would actually have to
do it and be surrounded by men all day and I didn't think about all
of the things
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
that would come into play like not being taken as seriously because
of my gender or... you know, all of the like
microaggressions
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm
Gillian:
that people say. I just, and also like a weird thing that I still
encounter and I'm still dealing with is what I've experienced is by
being a woman in a male-dominated field, it's really easy to get
your foot in the door, but once you're in the door, that's where
like all the complication starts happening,
Anne Ganguzza:
Ugh. Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
which is crazy. And then there's this whole personal thing that I
am still dealing with, which is when I'm working with other women,
or if they're, I mean I love when there's another woman in the
studio. It is so great, but I do have this weird feeling of, well,
I'm only here because I'm a woman. And if there's another woman,
then my special thing is no longer special. And the way I'm treated
is it makes me think of myself as only my gender, and sometimes I
have to step back and be like, you have to be... confident that
you're more than just that, even though all day I'm treated like
that's all I am.
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
So, I don't know, that's my experience. Those are some things on my
mind when I talk about it and how I got here and I guess some of
the things that I'm dealing with at the moment within
myself.
Anne Ganguzza:
Well, I'll tell you what you said about, you know, maybe it made
getting in the door a little bit easier. I actually had that
perception myself, you know, to
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
get in the door because, you know, employers want to feel like
they're, you know, they're treating people fairly and so they need
representation. But then you have
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
perception once you're there, right? I always feel like, okay, I
got myself here in this position. Now I have to prove that I'm
worthy. Right? And I feel like, okay, that's something that maybe,
I mean, other people, do they feel the same? Do they have to prove
that they're worthy of the position? Because there is perception
that, you know what, oh, she's here because she's a, you know,
she's a female. You know, I had that at my other job where people
were like, well, they want a female in tech as a good role model.
right,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
for, you know, when I worked in the school, right? They want a
female because she's a good role model for the kids now, and that's
why she got the job. I'm like, but no, really, once I open my
mouth, you'll probably hear why I got the job, because I can back
it up, right,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
with intelligence, and I can back it up with knowledge of the job,
of which I do.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
And, you know, it did get to be tiring. you know, to constantly,
constantly have to prove myself. Now, I'm gonna tell you that in
the majority of situations, at least in my experience, I had a boss
who never, I would say, discriminated. As a matter of fact, he was
very encouraging. And, but it was so many other people that I came
into contact with. And we worked with different vendors. from all
across the world, really, who I was a manager. And constantly I
would be meeting these people in person that would come into the
facility and just pass me by or ask me, like literally ask me if I
could get them a coffee. And that was just, I mean, that was just
one of those things. And I've got, yeah, no.
Gillian:
I get this like
Anne Ganguzza:
Or
Gillian:
anger inside
Anne Ganguzza:
ask me
Gillian:
me
Anne Ganguzza:
to be
Gillian:
hearing
Anne Ganguzza:
a secretary.
Gillian:
this.
Anne Ganguzza:
Well, see what that, I would always be asked, by the way, to
volunteer on boards, you know, and of course, there's a thing, like
in the corporate world, it was, and I don't know if it's still a
thing, but it used to be a thing where if you were on the board,
you know, it was a nice asset on your resume. And so people would
always ask me to be, well, the president, the vice president, no,
they'd say, will you be the secretary? And I'm like, No, I don't
take notes. I don't, I don't, you know what I mean? It was just, it
came back to that whole like, well, she's female and she's blonde,
so she must be the secretary and she must, she'll take the good
notes. And I'm like, no, I'm actually really bad at that. Ha
ha
Gillian:
It's...
Anne Ganguzza:
ha.
Gillian:
yeah, it's insane. The assumptions that we make about people and
like, oh, you're not being good at taking notes. You're like a bad
woman. Because if you're
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
a woman, you know how
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
to make the coffee and take the notes. I get, it's so funny,
because nobody will ask you to be a secretary anymore, but they'll
like... ask me to do stuff and when I break down what it is it's
like secretary oh you should just email the people you're really
good at that
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
you should just talk to people on the phone you're really good
at
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
that and i'm like how would you know i'm good at that i've never
done it i mean i would be
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah,
Gillian:
because i'm good at a lot
Anne Ganguzza:
exactly.
Gillian:
of things but it's so crazy and honestly i know you were saying
earlier about being bitter and it's like i'm not bitter i'm angry.
Like I get so angry, the stuff that people say, and especially I
get mad about myself, but I get mad about other people too, because
it's the fact that we have to go through this. And sometimes I
think to myself, like, how good could I be at my job if I didn't
have to worry about my gender all day or be fighting these comments
all day? Like
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
it's, it's so crazy the things that people have, I mean I could, I
could say like the ridiculous things people have said to me. I get
really frustrated. when people treat treat it like it's cute that
I'm working, like it's an option, like, oh, it's
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
so cute that you're doing this or doing that. I'm learning some
more technical stuff. I'm training to be a tech assistant in a
studio, which would basically mean that if gear broke, I would know
how to fix it. I'm helping him in the sense that if he has a piece
of gear, it'll be like, oh, you do this part. Like today we built
some XLR cables and
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
then we built some instrument cables and he was working on the
inside of a piece of gear. So he was that when I need to put them
back in like they're ready, stuff like that. And some guy came,
some guy I'd never met before came in and saw that I was I was
soldering and I was building this cable and he was like, oh do you
have a license to do that? And the tech
Anne Ganguzza:
My God!
Gillian:
technician was like, I don't have a license to do this, like what
are you talking about? Like it was just... I'm like, just because
I'm doing something you perceive I shouldn't be doing, you're gonna
like, make a comment about
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
it? So
Anne Ganguzza:
Now,
Gillian:
weird.
Anne Ganguzza:
let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Do you think
age has anything to do with it? I mean, was it an older person, or
was it a younger
Gillian:
Yes.
Anne Ganguzza:
person? Do you find that you
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
get flack from both younger
Gillian:
I do think...yeah,
Anne Ganguzza:
and maybe all ages?
Gillian:
I find that older people have older views, like, or more... archaic
is such a bad word, but like, archaic views of like,
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
this is what a woman should do. I mean, I've had... Yeah,
especially I think yes. The answer is yes. When I work with people
who are who are older I do find That they're less open-minded to
anybody of any
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
gender
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
identity doing things Which I do understand to some extent because
their world Was that way and it's just not that way anymore so I
sometimes with I don't know I try to have more
patience
Anne Ganguzza:
Well
Gillian:
with
Anne Ganguzza:
then,
Gillian:
people like
Anne Ganguzza:
then
Gillian:
that,
Anne Ganguzza:
you might
Gillian:
but
Anne Ganguzza:
have, yeah, I was gonna say then it might be a combination of, is
it because you're female or is it because you're
young?
Gillian:
Oh yeah,
Anne Ganguzza:
There's
Gillian:
for
Anne Ganguzza:
that
Gillian:
me.
Anne Ganguzza:
as well, you know? Mm-hmm,
Gillian:
I
Anne Ganguzza:
mm-hmm.
Gillian:
find it's like a double whammy of terrible. It's like, well, you're
young and experienced. But I do, whenever
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
I'm doubting myself, and if there's anyone out there who's
listening to this and is doubting themselves, I always ask, would
the same question be asked or be appropriate to be asked to a male
coworker?
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
And that always answers my question.
Anne Ganguzza:
Now, I think, mm-hmm. Now, you know, it's so interesting because
here we are doing a podcast and we're talking about our experiences
about being in a male-dominated field and what has happened to us.
And yet, I feel like I have to explain to the audience right now
that, you know, I'm not bitter. Uh... I really don't feel better. I
mean, there's, so there are things that I feel are maybe not just,
and I've, you know, I feel like I've lived my life long enough to
understand that, okay, there are things that are not just in this
world
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
and, you know, I have to kind of suck it up, buttercup, and, you
know, and deal with it. I will say. And I don't want to apologize
or say to the bosses out there that I'm sorry for this conversation
or feel like
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I need to tread lightly. But I will say that some of the positives
that have come out of, I guess, maybe not being treated as fair as
we would like is that I worked harder, and because I worked harder,
I got better. And
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I'm proud of that. I don't feel like maybe I shouldn't have had to
work so hard, but I do feel proud of the fact that I am capable and
very competent
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
at what I do. And I think that that's been a positive that's
happened. And I do believe that over the years, I feel that women
have been speaking up more. And I feel like that's a good thing
because it needs to be something, it needs to be talked about. It
just needs to be talked about.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
And I think the more we talk about things, and this is in any
situation, right? I mean, I just feel that if the conversations are
open and they've begun, then we can start to heal and move forward
and have progress.
Gillian:
Yeah, and I think I agree that there have been a lot of things in
my life that I've had to work harder than I should have or
something happened and I had to do something at someone else who
with a different experience may not have that has made me the
person I am, but I do wish that things were different because I'm
sure even without having to work harder
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
you were very good at your job. And I feel like I'm...
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-mm. Yeah.
Gillian:
I'm doing what I'm doing
Anne Ganguzza:
You
Gillian:
and
Anne Ganguzza:
were
Gillian:
you
Anne Ganguzza:
too.
Gillian:
did
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
what you're doing and hopefully throughout your lifetime and my
lifetime we just keep pushing the needle. I do really like talking
about it because I like listening to people talk about it. It's so
cathartic to not be
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm.
Gillian:
gaslit into thinking that, oh maybe it
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm.
Gillian:
really is just because I'm not good at my job. I'm not capable. I
deserve to be, you know, passed over for promotions or not being
taken seriously or not being asked
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
to be the VP on the committee or whatever
Anne Ganguzza:
Sure.
Gillian:
it was. Like maybe I am only the secretary and I just don't think
that that's true.
Anne Ganguzza:
Well, yeah, and I think it's such a valid point that you bring up
that we question ourselves.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
And as long as I've been in industries, and as long as I've been
alive and working hard and feeling like I got great at what I did
or am becoming a better person and being better at it, I also still
question myself. And I still self-sabotage myself once in a while,
and I know better. And
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I think it's something that's very real for
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I think a lot of women.
Gillian:
Mm.
Anne Ganguzza:
Gosh, you know, I totally get that. I mean,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I get it, I understand it. And so what do you do, you know, what do
you do, Gillian, to, I don't know, bring yourself out of that?
Because it's so easy to talk yourself into, you know, that kind of
a funk where you're like, oh, you know, maybe I don't deserve this
job, or maybe, you know, these people are better than
me.
Gillian:
I honestly, I don't know what I mean. What do I do? I mean, I
haven't stopped doing what I'm doing yet, which is just
continuing
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah,
Gillian:
to show
Anne Ganguzza:
yeah,
Gillian:
up.
Anne Ganguzza:
yeah.
Gillian:
I think because I love what I do. For me, feeling like I'm not good
enough, that makes me want to show up more, which is kind of like
what you said, you've worked harder.
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
And really the reason that I don't give up first, I mean... I
really think it's because I do love what I do and because of the
people that I've spoken to and knowing that as hard as I perceive
that I have it, it has been harder. And hopefully, I just keep
working to hope that 10 years from now I'll meet someone who's
telling me about their problems and I'll be relieved that they're
not the problems that I had. And knowing that by sh-
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
basically, I kinda said this earlier, but whether it's intentional
or subconscious or unintentional, for minority groups in a work
setting is to push them out. And I'm kind of determined not to be
pushed out. And so I guess that's really like
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm, mm-hmm.
Gillian:
the motivating factor is to just be
Anne Ganguzza:
Sure.
Gillian:
like, you can bully me, but like you can't bully me out of my job
because I wanna be one day someone who is higher up who can have a
diverse group of people and a diverse group of voices in the room,
whether or not the people who are currently in the
room
Anne Ganguzza:
Sure.
Gillian:
want to see that day. So I don't know,
Anne Ganguzza:
And
Gillian:
what is it for you?
Anne Ganguzza:
I'll tell you, you know, it's, well, I think talking to people
helped me, you know, other people. that are in similar kind of
situations. Like talking to you actually is helpful. And just
knowing that you're not fighting it alone, I think that's number
one. And I look to people that I see as examples. I mean, I had a
wonderful representative that I worked with a long time ago who was
in the middle of transitioning to a woman. And... And she held a
very high ranking position in the company that
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I was dealing with. And she was just the bravest soul,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
because it was about 20 years ago, if not longer.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
And she refused to quit
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
her job. And I know that it could not have been easy for her.
And
Gillian:
I don't
Anne Ganguzza:
so
Gillian:
think it's easy
Anne Ganguzza:
I constantly
Gillian:
now.
Anne Ganguzza:
thought that
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
she Yeah, and I don't think it's easy, but I constantly think about
that. And I just say, you know what, I think if she could do it, if
she could have the courage to kind of stick it out and
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
just stand up for what is right and what is just, because she was
excellent at her job,
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
and did not be pushed out by the... And it was a very large company
that was kind of... That could have had that mentality
that
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
a little bit more old school.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I'm quite sure 20 years ago, it was not something that people did
every day.
Gillian:
No,
Anne Ganguzza:
It just wasn't.
Gillian:
yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
It was a different time then. And I'm thankful that we have people
out there today that are defiant and
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
willing to stand up for who they are and willing to, I guess, fight
or defend what they do.
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
in the environment that they do because they're good at it and for
no other reason right that they are doing what they do And they
don't have to necessarily prove to anyone That they you know can do
the job
Gillian:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a big burden that gets put on us for to
just,
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
you know, be doing that. But yeah, oh, I had a train of thought and
then I lost it because I was into what you were saying. But even
like the VioBoss podcast, so many women on this podcast and so many
voices that get to be heard, which
Anne Ganguzza:
Mm-hmm.
Gillian:
is like so amazing. I mean, you're still doing the work and all of
the stuff. And like, I always
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm.
Gillian:
like when I see women who did it, like my mom did it. She worked on
Wall Street in a time that like... when
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm.
Gillian:
there weren't many women doing it. And I always want to be like,
thank you for your service, because it literally is because it's so
difficult to like endure it. And everyone has their different
coping
Anne Ganguzza:
Sure.
Gillian:
mechanisms and everyone does it in a different way. And we were
talking about this before we went on air, but like everybody. hates
women, like men hate women and women are taught to hate each other
and I feel like there's a lot of stuff
Anne Ganguzza:
Mmm.
Gillian:
of like, you're not doing it right or like you're acting a certain
way and it's like we're all just trying to get through it and the
more that we can realize that like we
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
do have each other, we don't need to fight each other, we can
actually like be stronger as a group, then that'd be great if we
did that more often.
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah. I mean, I love that sentiment. But you're right. I mean, you
know, I feel like sometimes even from women, it's hard, you know,
because there's so many different preconceived notions about what
women, you know, what they should be doing, if they're
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
capable of, you know, what, you know, should. I mean, gosh, I feel
like we're going backwards in time. I mean, well, that's a whole
nother podcast, but
Gillian:
Hahaha!
Anne Ganguzza:
politically, I mean, we're talking about, you know, you know, just
rights, human rights, basic human
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
rights. And, you know, I think, again, I love the fact that we are
opening a dialogue here. And
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
I'll tell you what, I mean, we could probably do five or six more
podcasts, if not 105. But
Gillian:
Yeah.
Anne Ganguzza:
I do want to say I really appreciate, really appreciate your input.
And I'm glad that you were open to discussing this with me, because
I think it took courage. It took courage to do that. And so, yes, I
love that. And bosses out there, we'd love to hear from you, love
to hear
Gillian:
Mm-hmm.
Anne Ganguzza:
what your thoughts are. And just I think if we can all just... Do
what we do best and be confident in that and not have to worry
about gender playing any type of a role in it. I think it would
just be a better world.
Gillian:
Yeah. And thank you for using this podcast and this platform to
talk about this because clearly without talking about it in the
choices, you are talking about it, but it is really good to talk
about it. And I'd love to
Anne Ganguzza:
Yeah.
Gillian:
continue the conversation, involve more people, more bosses, more
hosts just to talk about our experience because
Anne Ganguzza:
Yes.
Gillian:
it makes us feel less alone. And bosses, when you're
out
Anne Ganguzza:
Absolutely.
Gillian:
there working your little butts off, we see you. And if
it's
Anne Ganguzza:
Hehehehehehe
Gillian:
hard, you have two friends who are- cheering for you.
Anne Ganguzza:
Yes. Oh my God, what a wonderful, beautiful way to end that. Thank
you, Gillian, so much. Bosses, I am going to ask you if you have a
local nonprofit that's close to your heart, if you're wishing that
you can do more to help them, you certainly can. Visit
100VoicesWhoCare.org to learn how. And a big shout out to our
sponsor, IPDTL. You too can connect and network like bosses and
find out more at IPDTL.com. Guys, have an amazing week. and we'll
see you next week. Thanks so much. Bye.