Feb 27, 2024
This week Anne and Tom Dheere discussed the landmark agreement between SAG-AFTRA and Replica Studios. They discuss how this deal will shape the compensation, usage rights, and ethical considerations of voice performances in the age of AI. They look at the details of this complex partnership, examining the potential ripple effects for both union and non-union talents. They emphasize hinges on the necessity for voice actors to stay informed and proactive in the face of advancing technology that could redefine our industry. They confront the pressing issues that voice actors encounter, such as leasing AI technology and the critical need to secure royalties and licensing fees. The BOSSES cover the intricacies of fair AI voiceover rate structures and underscores the urgency for collective bargaining and new legal frameworks.
00:01 -
Intro (Announcement)
It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level.
These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being
utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business
like a boss, a VEO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne
Ganguzza.
00:20 - Anne (Host)
Hey everyone, welcome to the VEO Boss Podcast and the Real Bosses
series. I'm your host, Ann Ganguzza, and I'm here with my special
guest, co-host Tom Dheere. Tom, I'm so excited to have you back,
yes thank you so much for having me again this has been so much
fun.
00:35
So, tom, there's been some news in the industry and I think all
bosses should always be following up and be current on news that's
happening in the industry, because it directly affects our
businesses and so there has been a groundbreaking agreement between
SAG-AFTRA and Replica Studios, which is an AI company, and I think
we should talk about this and how it affects us and how it affects
our businesses.
01:01 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
I agree. Now just to get disclaimers. One I am a SAG-eligible
member. I am non-union, so I am not a member of SAG-AFTRA. So I was
going to say I don't have a horse in the race. But all voice
actors, regardless of union status, has a horse in the race of
what's going on in both the union ecosystem and the non-union
ecosystem, because they all have a major effect and influence on
each other. So I am a member of NAVA, the National Association of
Voice Actors.
01:29 - Anne (Host)
Myself included Yay.
01:31 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
And we know that NAVA, including providing health insurance and
education of the industry, is also a major advocate of making sure
that voice actors are both safe from predatory AI practices but
also are empowered to embrace AI to move our voiceover business
forward if we feel that it aligns with our value system and our
business model.
01:52 - Anne (Host)
And Tom, I know you and I both we have taken time to educate
ourselves within the AI industry and about synthetic voices, and I
think we are hoping to encourage others to do the same so that they
can make smart, educated decisions, and this is going to be part of
that very important discussion. So, absolutely, myself, I am
non-union. However, things that happen in our industry this can be
setting a precedent for how I'm going to say how AI companies work
with voice actors, as well as how consumers view AI and synthetic
voices, and I think one thing I remember Tim Friedlander mentioning
in one of his discussions was that, if nothing else, it's really
started to bring awareness to not just our community but everyone
out there of what sort of impact synthetic voices and AI can have
on our industry, on our voices and our rights, our intellectual
rights, our intellectual property. So talk about what you know of
the agreement.
02:54 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Okay, so the first thing I'll say in regards to that is about late
2021, I took a meeting with replica studios to talk about their
voice cloning process, and I'm pretty sure you've talked to them
too.
03:06 - Anne (Host)
Yes, I actually interviewed them on the VioBoss podcast. So,
bosses, make sure you listen to that one.
03:10 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Exactly, and different AI production companies have different
business models. They have different reasons for entering the
industry and how they go about their business. What replica studios
does is they work, at least right now, in the video game bubble,
which is they work with voice actors to create very specific
performances. So, like I think I auditioned for the part of, like
the crazy old West speculators there's gold in them, not huge Like.
I'd submit it to be considered for one of those. So, and if you do
get that, you get paid, and that performance can only be used for
that performance, both on a technological level, because they can't
turn your crazy mining prospector into an astronaut voice or
another voice Now.
03:54 - Anne (Host)
is that because that's established with the company? Are you
talking about all companies?
04:00 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
or I'm talking about Replica.
04:01 - Anne (Host)
Okay, replica, okay. So Replica has an agreement in place where, if
you create a voice with them and it is used for a video game, it
can only be used for that particular video game in that particular
instance and they cannot make additional dialogue or additional
games from that voice or.
04:19 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
It is my understanding. Also, I watched the Navas wonderful but two
hour long question and answer thing. So forgive me if I
misquote.
04:28 - Anne (Host)
No, everyone should be watching that as well, oh
absolutely.
04:31 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
It's on YouTube. Go to the Navas website and there's a link and you
should definitely watch it. It was fascinating, Cause you learn not
only about AI, you learn a lot about how Sagrafftro works. Cause
Zeke talked in severe detail wonderful severe detail about how
bargaining works and contracts work and agreement works, and all of
that. But historically, replica would use your voice as a
placeholder during production of the video game, as opposed to
using your voice to be cast in the video game. Smaller
roles.
04:57 - Anne (Host)
Yes, yes, when I interviewed them, that was their process and you
were paid. You were compensated on it. Not a character, a video
game character, but a character. How many characters were used? You
get paid on a character basis in a monthly contract.
05:11 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Right, and that one character could be used as a placeholder in
production in multiple video game production companies making
multiple video games and smaller roles could also be used by that
and you would get compensated for that. So this agreement
Sagrafftro agreement with Replica basically just sets up the
relationship how Sagrafftro members can work for Replica studios
and they have set up a studio per hour rate you know of the actual
performance and then they have set up the usage or licensing of
what happens when your voice is used and how long it's used for and
what the compensation is. I think it was per 300 lines or something
like that and then there's incremental payment. Zeke made some
very, very interesting points, because one thing that a lot of
people have been saying is like why isn't Sagrafftro fighting AI?
Why aren't they trying to ban AI? And he said that. To paraphrase,
he said they had a choice they could either try to prohibit AI or
they could try to regulate AI.
06:10 - Anne (Host)
Absolutely.
06:11 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
And he and Tim agreed that they are five to 10 years too late for
prohibition of AI, even if they wanted to prohibit it. So, as a
result, their only recourse is to get involved with regulation of
AI.
06:23 - Anne (Host)
I think we should reiterate that, Tom, yes, rather than prohibition
of AI, which, look, technology happens with or without us, right?
And so prohibition of AI could have been really difficult, really
really difficult to enforce and probably would have, I think,
destroyed the industry, to be honest with you.
06:38 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
That's what he said. That's exactly what he said.
06:40 - Anne (Host)
Therefore, again, we don't have a choice as members of the
industry, we don't really have a choice. I mean, we either fight
back and quit or we evolve and we work with it. And I think that
it's admirable of a company because right now I wanna talk to you
about there's no regulation for companies right now, and it's
interesting because I just interviewed Auskirkowski from DeepDubb
AI, another AI company that does dubbing and localization of
voices, who are also very much in the fair transparency,
compensation to the voice actor, and there's something to be said
for companies that say right, that they are fair and transparent
and compensatory. Is that a word?
07:21 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Compensatory.
07:22 - Anne (Host)
Compensatory. Thank you For voice actors in the industry, but it's
also another thing because there's no other regulation. They say it
on their website, they say it in their policies, but there's nobody
enforcing it. So I think for Replicca to come forward to SEG-AFTRA
and make themselves accountable, at least to an organization that
directly deals with our industry in such an impactful way, I think
that that was great. Now the nitty-gritty of the contract. I've not
been privy to see that. However, what makes me a little bit nervous
is that, first of all, we're voice actors. We know voice
acting.
07:59
Replicca is an AI company. They know AI, and so I know from working
in technology for 20 billion years that there's a lot of
misunderstanding. People that don't understand the technology can
be talked into things. Possibly they can be coerced into agreeing
to things that may or may not serve them in a positive light.
However, at some point you've just got to put faith in a company
that they're going to be ethical and transparent, and I think this
was a good move, and I guess possibly there's loopholes in the
contract, but I do believe we're working towards something that's
positive in the industry.
08:33 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Here's one thing I've been talking to a lot of people about. Is
that? Well, for one thing to your point is that there is no federal
legislation to hold AI companies accountable for artists IP right
now, and Nava has been working with Capitol Hill and there are
multiple bills in the works If you go to the Nava website it has
links to show you the legislation that they are working on which is
great.
08:59
There are a lot of people I've been hearing in the voiceover
industry saying all AI companies are, by definition, unethical.
These, I think, are also a lot of the same people that have been
saying for 20 years that all pay-to-play sites by definition are
unethical. Neither of those are true. They're patently false. No
matter where you go in any industry, in any sector of any business
all over the world, a certain percentage of the people involved are
going to be unethical.
09:26 - Anne (Host)
Bad actors, bad actors, bad actors.
09:29 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Every industry. The voiceover industry is no different. So that
means a certain percentage of people who are voice seekers on
pay-to-play sites are going to be predatory and will try to rip you
off, and a certain percentage of voice actors on pay-to-play sites
will underbid, underbid, undercut, which damages the industry. Same
thing with AI. There's no difference. It's just that people are
going to be how they're going to be, so all you can do is bring
your value system with you. It's like a bad client, yeah, and we
all have bad clients.
09:56 - Anne (Host)
And it's something that I'm always talking about. Right, it's one
of the reasons why I have my voice in AI series, with over like 35
interviews with AI companies is to educate yourself, and that was
really the basis for myself. Educating myself about the industry is
just talking, and one thing I think that is so important is that we
have a dialogue with these AI companies, we make it known and I
think Nava is just doing wonderful work in helping that to happen
and for really fighting for voice actors on behalf of the
organization and I think that all of us just need to educate
ourselves on what is happening and, just like a bad client like I
educate myself on a client. There are telltale signs when I can get
a feeling about a client, if they're going to be a bad client or
going to be difficult to work with. And I think AI companies are no
different, and I think, first and foremost, companies that are out
in the forefront of the industry today and there's a lot of AI
companies or a lot of little tiny ones that have popped up and not
survived, but the ones that are there in the forefront, the larger
companies I think that they are responsible for providing an
ethical ground, Because I don't think that consumers first of all
will stand for companies that are not ethical in their treatment of
humans, because it becomes like this whole thing.
11:16
I mean again, we're also a product of or a slave to the industry in
which we work, right? So if consumers are wanting synthetic voices,
or if synthetic voices will provide a space in the market, will
provide something of value to a market, and Oz said to me the other
day he said well, normally there would be all of this content that
wouldn't be dubbed, that wouldn't be created, because it's simply
the process of doing so takes such a long time and it's kind of
like the audiobook genre and the audiobook AI companies that we're
trying to make audiobooks with synthetic voices, and so there is a
lot of content out there that won't get produced simply because it
is a process to do with a voice actor, now that a voice actor isn't
desired or better. However, there's some content that it may not be
as necessary to have a human voice.
12:08 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Yes, and I'm pretty sure we've had these conversations before in
various circles that there is some content, like a product manual,
that would never get narrated by a human because of you know,
there's just so many of them and it's not cost effective. But an AI
can do that. Our good friend, karen, vice president of NAVA, uses
the example of no human can narrate the New York Times overnight,
and those who are visually impaired have just as much of a right to
enjoy the New York Times with their morning cup of coffee than any
other sighted person Absolutely.
12:43 - Anne (Host)
An.
12:43 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
AI can help provide that service. It's where you get into other
areas. And actually there are people who because I've had
conversations with people who say, nope, that's still not art,
that's still taking jobs from people. That is still unethical.
There is a certain percentage of the population that there's just
going to be no talking to.
13:02
So it's like okay there's going to be no convincing. And if that's
their value system and they think AI is an affront to art and an
attack on art, and with some of the bad actors and predatory
companies, yes, it absolutely is. But this conversation and it's
not really about art, it's about technology Technology always wins.
It always wins. Now, when I say that that doesn't mean well, we
should all surrender and sell out and clone our voices and get paid
a nickel, you know five cents on the dollar and just eat dog food
and live in a hovel because we can't thrive as artists in the
voiceover industry and get paid rates that are commensurate with
the industry standard.
13:45
But there are ways to navigate the industry, whether you are pro
AI, anti AI or can't be bothered with AI and have the potential to
still be able to thrive as a voice actor. And this agreement with
SAG-AFTRA and Replica is a major step, major, major step in that
direction. Because, as you also know, the rate structure for
compensation for AI whether it's to have your voice cloned or some
other service where they're gonna synthesize your voice just for
their website or just for this bit of software, much less getting
it put on a website where anybody can subscribe and use it. It's
still the Wild West. Now, with SAG-AFTRA, they are providing, thank
goodness, the beginning of some sort of rate structure that we can
all start to work with and find out if it's a viable one.
14:31 - Anne (Host)
I'm so glad that you brought that up, because that is still we talk
about. The Wild West rates have always been a Wild West right,
especially for non-union. So what's really wonderful is that, yes,
if SAG-AFTRA is getting involved. And of course, I've been telling
the GVAA to get on with AI rate structures because, again, how much
do you charge or how much should you get paid? And of course, now
you're actually doing like a royalty share really with a company
that produces that voice, because you cannot produce your own AI
voice, I mean literally you have to lease an engine to do that or
work with a company for them to produce it, and then ultimately,
they're the ones.
15:07
Let's see if they have an interface that allows you to go in there
and do a text to speech or a speech to speech generation of those
files. You're still leasing that engine that does that, and that is
something that you do not have control over. I mean, that is not
your studio, and so, in reality, you have to pay for the rights for
that studio to produce that audio. That's what I think about it,
and I think about it as being it's more than just a studio to
produce that synthetic voice or those audio files. It is the studio
and it is also pretty much kind of the voice actor in a
way.
15:44
It's like a percentage of you that is being used and so we can't
possibly get paid what we're probably used to because we were used
to controlling that ourselves. And it can only help the more people
that get involved in this discussion, because I will tell you that
a couple of years ago, when I started interviewing companies and we
started talking about rates, there were no rates set and in fact
nobody really wanted to like even comment on a rate. There were
some people that flung out oh 10%, Voice actors would get 10%. And
voice actors heard that and got completely insulted, not
understanding the technology.
16:21
Now I say well, who says 10%, why not ask for 50%? Right, it's my
voice and their engine, so why not start at 50%? It seems
reasonable to me, Any good negotiator, right, If you're going to
work with a company and you're going to have an agreement on a rate
structure or a fee schedule, you can always negotiate. And so if
SAG-AFTRA is working with rates and we've got other companies that
are setting the rates, this is the thing when the company set the
rates. It's kind of like who says the number first, right, they win
right.
16:54
Or you know what I mean. If I ask what's your budget? Right? That's
the proper way to negotiate, right? You don't say the number first,
but if you set it, I feel like we have some footage. We have some
ground to discuss and talk about what would be a fair compensation.
Because, again, we want our voices to be valued. And again, this
whole agreement with at least replica saying we're willing to step
up to the plate and we're willing to be held accountable by an
organization right For fairness, transparency and compensation for
actors to get paid for their value. But what is that value? That's
the question in terms of a synthetic voice.
17:34 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Right, right, voice actors are in the business of licensing our
art. That is what we've always done. That's always what we've done.
We're the artist in the booth, yeah, which is our session fee, and
then, if it's a broadcast commercial, union or non-union, then we
license that performance, which is the usage fee. There is zero
difference between that and what the SAG-AFTRA replica agreement
is. They will get paid a certain amount for being in the booth and
then they will get paid for the use of that. So, union or
non-union, you're in the business of licensing your art. This is
just more of a codification of it in relation to the. I don't know
if you'd call AI a genre, or I don't know what you well pay to
places in a genre either. It's a portal, I guess, because I've
always said there are three portals in the voiceover industry for
casting opportunities representation, online casting and
self-marketing. Maybe this is the fourth one? Yeah,
maybe.
18:30 - Anne (Host)
AI.
18:31 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Maybe it's like a three and a half one, but we want to license our
art. Look, unless you don't and if you don't, then you work for the
seeing eye here in not here in New Jersey, but across the water or
you do stuff for learning online. Yeah, and you narrate stuff pro
bono, which there is a place for. That that's art too. It's just
you're not licensing your art, you're donating your artistic
ability to do that.
18:53 - Anne (Host)
And when you do that, by the way, it's kind of scary because
anytime, like our podcast, like this podcast here, or anytime I put
my voice out there, out on the internet, right now there's no
regulation of it and so, theoretically, bad actors, companies that
are not ethical, could be taking that and making voices, which they
probably have, I would assume that.
19:13
I guarantee it I guarantee that, if you're known in the industry at
all, you've got your voice out there, that your voice.
19:18
And we've seen that also where there have been some companies,
unethical companies that have been producing voices or taking, you
know, scrubbing the internet for voices, and that is something that
is unfortunate. However, it's something until there are
regulations, laws in place, that I mean. Gosh, how many times we
talk about it, like with our phone, have they been listening? Have
they been recording? Absolutely, and so that data is theirs. They
can use that to develop anything. But at least now I think that,
yeah, we're kind of backpedaling, but we now need to at least make
our voices heard and the more organizations that can help us to do
that right SAG-AFTRA, with this agreement with Repuka Nava helping
us talking on the podcasts about it, and you and I being open and
transparent saying, hey, I have a synthetic voice. I have a
synthetic voice partially because I was educating myself on how
voices got created, what companies I would want to be working with
and really, until I take those risks, I don't know and I'm not
educated.
20:21 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Right, and being a voice actor is a risk in itself.
20:23 - Anne (Host)
Sure is.
20:23 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
Because it's such an unpredictable, chaotic, no guarantee of any
income ever kind of industry. And also I've been doing online
auditioning since 2006. Right, so I guarantee I've had multiple
auditions stolen and I'm sure my voice has been cloned in some
capacity many, many times, just like every website you've ever been
to or ever will go to has been or will be hacked, and our social
security numbers are all over the place, and it's terrible and
there's really not much we can do about that. Retroactively moving
forward, we do everything we can to protect our intellectual
property and engage in safe practices. So auditioning for some text
to speech thing on a pay to play site, I think is a terrible
idea.
21:05
Scheduling a meeting with a AI production company and asking
questions about how do you operate? Sure, what is your compensation
structure? Sure, what's your licensing structure? Can I see an
example of your agreement so I can take a look at it or send it to
an attorney to review it? Even if you don't want to clone your
voice, I strongly recommend doing that so you can just have an
understanding of what the industry is, because this is going to be
more and more a part of the industry and there will eventually come
a point where there will be legitimate ethical casting notices on
pay to play sites. In regards to AI, which Nava has done a great
job with Voice123, for example, to help curb that tidal wave of
felonious casting notices that was proliferating the Voice123 site
until they had a conversation and said, if okay, so if clients want
to post a text-to-speech casting notice, they have to answer these
questions and really answer them. And then all those casting
notices vanished literally overnight. So that tells you
something.
22:01 - Anne (Host)
It does.
22:02 - Tom Dheere (Guest)
So the VO bosses, the bosses out there, need to know how to protect
themselves, while at the same time understanding that this isn't
going anywhere. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Ai is a
disruptive force, just like the light bulb disrupted the candle
maker industry. And who gave a darn about the candle making
industry, except for the candle makers? Yeah, very true, so you
know what I mean. This is a part of the industry. You got to learn
to embrace, adapt evolve and grow or you're going to get left
behind.
22:29 - Anne (Host)
Absolutely, and you need to educate yourself about how the industry
is evolving and again, you will be left behind if you are not
educating yourself. So, bosses, go out there and sign up for Nava.
I cannot recommend that anymore. Nava is doing wonderful things.
Listen to the VO Boss Voice and AI series. Listen to Tom and I talk
about it. We have a couple of episodes We've already talked about
it on the VO Boss episode and really just read everything that you
can familiarize yourself with, everything that you can, so that we
can move forward and have successful businesses along with this
disruptive technology.
23:03
Because if it's not AI, it's going to be another disruptive
technology, and I'd like to challenge any boss out there and ask
them if they are not using some form of AI to help their business
right now and being hypocritical and saying, well, you can't use my
voice, but yet they might be using I don't know chat, gbt to do
something to make their business run more efficiently. So there are
multiple AI opportunities out there that you can utilize that I
think are wonderful to help your business run more effectively, and
Tom and I just made do an episode on those. That's not a bad idea.
So, all right, guys. Well, tom, this has been an amazing
discussion. I'm sure we could talk about this forever, but thank
you so much for joining me again.
23:48
And, bosses, I implore you, if you want to take a moment and
imagine a world full of passionate, empowered, diverse individuals
giving collectively and intentionally, you too can help to create a
world that you would like to see and make a difference. Visit
100voiceshoekerorg to learn more. Big shout out to our sponsor,
ipdtl. You, too, can network and connect like a boss. Find out more
at IPDTLcom. Have an amazing week and we'll see you next week.
Thanks, guys, bye.
24:21 - Intro (Announcement)
Bye yeah.