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The VO Boss podcast blends business advice with inspiration & motivation for today's voice talent. Each week, host Anne Ganguzza shares guest interviews + voice over industry insights to help you grow your business and stay focused on what matters...

Nov 8, 2022

Everyone's got Imposter Syndrome. But it doesn't mean you're a fraud. In this episode, Anne & Lau dive into why we are so attached to the sound of our voice and how fixating on that can be a barrier to success. Voice is an essential part of how we are perceived, which affects our personal and professional lives. When you listen to yourself critically, it's easy to get lost in technical details. Your voice is your greatest tool, so stop doubting it. It is an instrument and the vehicle for your craft. So Bosses, love your voice. Embrace it. And if you still need some extra pointers to overcome your inner critic and use your voice to the fullest, listen up…


>> It’s time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry’s top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let’s welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.

Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and our business superpower series. I'm Anne Ganguzza, your host, and I'm excited to welcome back to the show Lau Lapides. Lau, hello.

Lau: Hello. Hello. Glad to be back as always.

Anne: How's your week been, Lau?

Lau: Amazing. Busy, amazing, wonderful. Went on vacation. We were talking about this earlier. Went on vacation up to the Berkshires 'cause I'm in New England.

Anne: Of course. Lovely.

Lau: It was a workcation.

Anne: Ah.

Lau: Right? I never leave. I never really leave work.

Anne: Yes. I try to, but you're right. I don't leave either. Although I will say that I do notify my clients ahead of time that I'm going to be on vacation and may not be as responsive, so we have that. But then there are other opportunities that I make sure that I have my travel gear set and ready to go, so.

Lau: Well, you're much better than I am. I don't let anyone know. I pretend as if I'm like still --

Anne: As if you're still working?

Lau: -- in my studio. And then I'm in some bathroom somewhere in Lennox, Mass during intermission turning my phone on going, yeah. Okay. So you've got a call back and you've gotta get there, and like I have to turn my phone off. I don't know. I'm not getting reception. I'll talk to you in like an hour and a half.

Anne: Oh my God. I love it.

Lau: <Laugh>.

Anne: So funny.

Lau: But you know what? It's our lifestyle businesses, right?

Anne: It is.

Lau: BOSSes know that's the lifestyle that we live. It's not just a nine to five. It's really what we love, what we do, all the time.

Anne: Yeah, yeah. As long as there's a balance. Now speaking of superpowers, I wanted to bring up something this week because as you know, I coach my students, and frequently, and I know that you also are dealing with multiple students as well and people on your roster -- I wanna know if you get this as much as I do. I don't like my voice. I just don't like my voice. And I thought to myself, you know, that's so common actually. I hear that a lot from my students, especially my female students actually that they don't like their voice. And I thought it would be a really interesting discussion to talk about the psychology behind that. And why do you think it is that people don't like their voice?

Lau: Gosh, I don't think your podcast is even close to long enough to even answer that. I mean, it could take centuries to answer that. I don't know. I think there's a lot of reasons why. I think first that always comes to my mind is that thing of which got really hot, really, really hot, I'd say in the last couple years, the imposter syndrome became hot and known. It was this unknown thing that really women suffered from, primarily women suffered from. And it was, I think the first one that brought it, believe it or not, that brought it out was Joan Rivers, the comedian Joan Rivers put it in her routine. And then Harvard university said, wait a second. Is that a real thing? Let's do studies on it. And then they spent 10 or 15 years doing studies on people who get hit with it. Right?

Anne: Well, I think it's absolutely always been a real thing. It just hasn't been talked about, right?

Lau: Yes. Oh, very real.

Anne: I'm the first person to admit that imposter syndrome hits me still every day. And I always try to turn it around into a good thing where if you have imposter syndrome, it's motivating you to continually grow and excel. But this thing about voices, I'm gonna say, myself, I even went through it myself so that I can identify when a student comes to me and says, ugh, I just don't like my voice. But I always say, remember in the first place, a lot of times, the reason people get into this industry is because someone has said to them that they have a nice voice and that maybe they should consider voiceover as a career. And I've had people that told me that in the beginning, but after I started studying and started really pursuing it as a career and getting work and then falling into the, oh my gosh, am I ever gonna get hired, that kind of a confidence -- oh my God, I must not be good enough, and that imposter syndrome that really kind of hit me, I started to really criticize my voice.

And I used to listen to my voice and say, what doesn't sound -- I wanna sound like this person. I want that rasp. My voice does not have a rasp. It just doesn't. And no matter how hard I try to physically create a rasp, it's difficult and it could hurt my vocal cords. So I gave up doing that, but I gave up kind of coveting other people's voices and really started to understand that my voice needed to be embraced, number one, because how would I ever sell my voice if I couldn't embrace it? And the other thing is I think that maybe people spend too much time listening to the sound of their voice, and that I feel might be the biggest barrier to acceptance because, should we really be listening to our voices in terms of technically, how does it sound? I think really as voice actors, right, Lau, you know what I'm gonna say? Right? As actors, we need to be acting and the concentration should not be on how we sound.

Lau: That's right. And I know when I record myself, I can't appreciate hearing myself as I'm recording. I oftentimes will not even wear the cans. I won't even wear the headphones because I want to concentrate on the true connection of what I'm doing here. And if I'm hearing myself -- and I was never an air prompter person anyway, so I, I was never in that realm of having to be proficient at hearing myself as I'm delivering language. So I always deliver with headphones off, and I, I suggest to clients, at least for the beginning phase, don't put 'em on because I want you to make an authentic connection in what you're saying and who you're saying it to, who you're speaking to. And that's, you know, acting basics, right? 101.

Anne: Sure. Sure.

Lau: But I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of, Anne, talking about I'm not good enough. I won't be accepted. I'm not reaching it.

Anne: I don't sound good enough. There's always that.

Lau: I think that that's so primal.

Anne: Does my voice have what it takes to deliver? No, it's not about your voice. It's about you.

Lau: It's about, you.

Anne: It's about you. You know what I mean? It's about you and your personality and what it brings to that voice. And I'm, I'm just gonna say about the headphones. Now, when I first began, I was in a construction zone, and I had to wear headphones in my booth to make sure that there were no low vibratory sounds that were coming through. So I totally understand what you're saying about taking the headphones off. But I feel that in all honesty, right, if we have the headphones off, we can still sometimes listen to ourselves. You know what I mean? We're still like, these are amplifying everything that we're saying. So for headphones I'm of the nature that yes, whatever works for people to not be distracted by their own sound. I think that if you're a true actor, you can act with headphones on and with headphones off, so.

Lau: Of course, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's really how you train.

Anne: It's helpful.

Lau: Yeah. How you train yourself, what technique you build, that's repeatable for you that doesn't distract you away from what you're trying to do. And I always say to a client, I say it's ridiculous in the sense that if you went to Kraft macaroni, or you went to Nike shoes or you went to Toyota, would they honestly be thinking -- they meaning the advertising company, the people who are creating and producing scripts -- would they honestly be thinking right now as I deliver this to you, this sucks?

Anne: Yeah, yeah.

Lau: They may talk about it at their wine party, up in Aspen over the weekend that they don't like the product, but in the moment of pitching it, in the moment of selling it in the moment of connecting to the end user, it is the best thing in the world. Not only is it the best, you can't live without it. You really can't.

Anne: Absolutely.

Lau: And there's some sort of disconnect between the product, that physical inanimate object, that and us, our identity, our physical person, our vocal sound. There's a disconnect that we then become part of that product. We become part of that branding. And so for us to say, I don't know if I'm doing this well, I don't know if I'm good enough. I don't know if, what is in essence saying the product isn't good enough.

Anne: Isn't good enough.

Lau: The product is subpar, and that's a danger zone for us. We have to be very careful of that because we sell value. We don't wanna sell devalue. We don't wanna devalue our value, and whatever you do privately is something else.

Anne: <Laugh> Sure. No, I love how you brought it to the product. Because in reality, remember we are the voice of the product. We are the voice of the company. And no matter what you're doing, even if you're doing, I'm just saying, if you're doing corporate narration, if you're doing explainers, again, you're still working with a product. And if you're not doing that, let's say if you're doing anything else, if you're teaching, right, you're teaching more than likely, right, you become a teacher. And you are teaching either about some product or maybe a concept. And so again, you don't wanna devalue the content that you are speaking of.

Lau: Exactly.

Anne: And that's such a wonderful example that you brought up. I'm so glad you said that.

Lau: Thank you. And you it's interesting, Anne, it seems to be unique to us and our profession, us meaning talent. It seems to be unique quality that we see in many, many people that we don't see quite as much in other industries and other professions. It would be like, ask yourself this, if you do this, if you do this, ask yourself this. Would you appreciate going to a doctor's office? And the doctor comes in and says, I don't know if I know how to listen to your heart. I mean, I, I, I don't know if I'm gonna do it well enough. I mean, what do you think? And you'd be freaked out. You'd go running outta that office. You'd go, I don't want this woman or guy touching me. I --

Anne: Yeah, yeah.

Lau: Right? If you went to a dentist, and you had to have your tooth drill, like, I don't know if I can, I don't know if you'll like what I do. I'm not sure. I mean, it sounds funny to us, right?

Anne: I might make you hurt <laugh>.

Lau: Right?

Anne: But you're right. It's so true.

Lau: And it doesn't mean either that they're qualified, and it doesn't mean either they're the best at what they do. It just means it is innate within their training, within their experience, within their identity, that this is what they do. This is the product they offer, the value they offer. You're gonna pay for that service and it's as simple as that. Hopefully you won't complain about it. <laugh>. Right?

Anne: Absolutely.

Lau: But it's so unique unto us is to take it so personalized and to say, but do you approve of me, but do you like me? So going back to your original question a half an hour ago, like what is the psychology of this whole thing? I think it does really start with us as a human being, as a person. Like where is our self-esteem? Where is our level of confidence? Do we feel good in our own skin? Do we feel ashamed or humiliated in honest connection? I mean, ask yourself these questions as a human being in the world and then try to work with it. If the answer is yes, I have a struggle with this, I have a problem with this, then work with it. Don't work against it. Don't shove it under the rug because it's gonna come out out in your next audition. It's gonna come out in your next reach out.

Anne: And I think, honestly, it's again, I love how you just brought it down to that level, but it's also remember you're honoring the copy. The copy has been crafted by someone who has put a lot of thought into it, for the most part we think, right? And that there is a message that needs to be delivered. And you need to communicate that message effectively. Now Lau, when we talk back and forth, I'm certainly not thinking to myself, do I sound okay when I talk to Lau?

Lau: It's funny to think that, isn't it?

Anne: Right? Does my voice sound -- maybe I should talk to Lau like this. And no, because that just, it's not bringing ourselves. It's not bringing who we are, and you know, we say it over and over again. Bring yourself to the party. Right? Well, your voice and yourself, your voice is not mutually exclusive from yourself. The way you're treating it, if you're listening to it saying it does not sound good enough, then that's what you are essentially doing. You are splitting apart the voice from who you are. And I think ultimately, yeah, you have to be the one that can bring yourself to the party. When we connect as human beings, that's what I care about. I don't care, Lau, when you talk to me, what you sound like, I care about what you're saying to me and what it means to me.

And I think by trying to just bring it back onto ourselves where most people might think it's an insecurity thing -- in reality, when you think too much about how you sound, it becomes more of a vanity thing or an egotistical thing, where you're not thinking about the client. You're not thinking about the product or the copy that you should be honoring. You are thinking more about what you sound like on top of that copy. And that's not where your voice needs to be. Your voice needs to be in the act, in the action of delivering that copy to the best of your ability and the most effectively on behalf of that client.

Lau: I mean, at the end of the day, it's all about the messaging. We use the fancy schmancy term story and storytelling, but storytelling is about the messenger. What message is being delivered? And what is that stake here? What is the value to the audience of that message? Is it gonna fix their life, fix their health? You know, help them find a pet, and, and help them educate their child, or have a better quality health regimen? It's always something in there for the end user that will potentially better their life. Now I'm not saying that that is, that's not a truism. It doesn't actually do it all the time. I'm saying that that's the claim that is being made in the message. And if you lose the message, you lose the claim. And that is a problem. That can be a real problem.

Anne: You say the word value, and that is so important. The value to the client. It's not your value. It's the value that you are bringing to the client. So it goes from a place of how can I help you, the client, not how can I sound beautiful when I say these words? It's how can I help you? And the place has to come from within you and not from just the lips and outward because sometimes when we're listening to what we sound like, that's all we can concentrate on.

Lau: Exactly.

Anne: And there's no story, there's no message. There's no emotion. There's no point of view.

Lau: Exactly. And you brought up a great point there. You know, a number of the roles -- I call it roles, theatrical roles -- but a number of the, the voicing parts that we see in scripts now are not always clean, what we call clean or polished. Sometimes they're dirty sounding. Sometimes they're heavy sounding. Sometimes they're sad. There's a lot of doleful scripts. We see a lot of heavily poetic and weighted scripts about things that are thoughtful or lugubrious, or, you know, you've gotta hit a lot of different kinds of feelings and tones now in scripts that are not always pretty. They're not always perfect. And they're not always lovely sounding. Sometimes they're gritty and gravely and that kind of thing. So that to me reflects life as well. We don't always sound good in life. We don't always --

Anne: Imperfect.

Lau: -- say the right thing. Yeah. We're not always PC or whatever. We're just not always right. So the idea of wanting to fix myself all the time, I need to be right. I can't be wrong. Did I get it right, is wrong because there is no right. It's really just according to the vision of the listener, who the listener is and what the messaging is that gives them the value that they're looking for.

Anne: Yeah. Imperfect is actually perfect.

Lau: It is.

Anne: I really believe that. And I think because that connects to people on a very raw and real level, and that's where you get a lot of the casting specs say, make it conversational, make it natural as if you're talking to your friends, make it real. And that is probably the hardest thing for us to do as voice actors. And I think we spend our careers honing that skill of being a better actor and being more real and authentic. And like you said, their scripts are all over the place. Sometimes they're sad and doleful, and we need to be able to be in that moment and create those scenes and react to those scenes.

And that is not always a pretty sound. I think one of my favorite corporate narrations that I always play from when I'm presenting corporate narration is a voice actress who, her voice cracks. And it's not a perfect sound. And I think a lot of my students, they feel like they have to be articulate, and I'm like, we're not articulate in the real world. As long as you can understand what I'm saying, contrary to popular belief, you do not need to be articulate because when you're too articulate, then it becomes something that is difficult to listen to.

Lau: That's exactly right. And this idea of perfection and this idea of polished is just not where we wanna go oftentimes. It just, in fact, it's the anti that now, it's the opposite of that now. It's like, what's our largest generation now? Our largest generation is millennials in the United States. And so we wanna emulate the demographic to get an empathy factor that, oh, this is me. This sounds like me. This person feels the way I feel. They understand me. Well, I can't sound like that in order to get that feeling, right? It's a more colloquial, more chill, more like laid back, kind of feel to it.

And that's hard. I think for the over 40 crowd, like my generation generation Xeer, it's really hard to say, wait a second. What happened to all of our theater acting background? What happened to all of our speech and rhetoric? What happened to, well, it's there, you have to trust it's there, but it's not always applicable to what we're doing in the script. You know what I like to do? Anne, I like to say, change the word conversational and natural, which is throws people oftentimes -- change it to environmental, change it to contextual, because we wanna hear you being somewhere. We wanna hear you involved in something.

Anne: Oh I agree with that.

Lau: It's not like sound this way. <laugh>.

Anne: Sure. And besides that, I'm always adding in, I wanna hear movement. I wanna hear movement in the scene. It's not you in a monologue. There's so many people that will do the work and say, okay, I'm Anne, I'm talking to my friend Lau, and we're in the kitchen. And they do all that setup work. And then all they do is read the words. And it becomes a monologue to them. Even if they start off talking to Lau, right, they tend to go off, and then they're speaking into the air. And I'm like, if you were on a stage and you were interacting with someone, like you should be with the listener, right, interacting, you would not be necessarily going off on a monologue, 'cause that would be impolite, right? You know, you need to let them in on the conversation. You need to check in on them once in a while.

And also when you do that, if you can move in the scene, that makes your audition or your read a whole lot more impactful, I think, than just standing in the same place. Because on a stage you wouldn't stand in the same place typically for too long, right? You'd have some movement. And so that translates to so many things. Right? In the middle of the script, stop and take a look. And where are you? What happened in the scene? Did it change? Did you stand up? Did you walk across the room? Did you look at Lau and see if Lau is shaking her head in agreement or does she have a question?

And so I think if you can really set those scenes up, even in something that is written very like dry, and I see this all the time in, in narration scripts, you wanna make sure that that's a more engaging script. You wanna bring that script to life. Well, how are you gonna do that when you're just standing there in the same spot and the energy is only coming out of your lips?

Lau: Exactly. It's unnatural.

Anne: It's unnatural. We need energy in our hands and our body movement in the scene changes. That I think is just, is so important to bring that to life.

Lau: It's, it's so important. And for those folks who are listening in, who have actor training and have trained under the discipline of Sanford Meisner, Meisner's work was based in the concept that all we're asking you to do is act natural under purely unnatural circumstances. So it's, it's really okay. I'm tricking my brain into thinking this is real, even though I know it's not real, whether you're in a theater or a vocal booth or in front of a camera, it couldn't be further from real. Right?

But there has to be a piece of you psychologically that stays alive that says I am doing the kind of work that I'm trained to do, that I want to be doing, that I'm enjoying doing. And I give myself permission to fall, to jump, to fail, to make mistakes, to do what real people do in real time. This idea of like, oh, I shouldn't mess up, I shouldn't make a mistake, I should get it right the first or second time -- it's not a natural way to think because natural terms in nature is real time for us. And in real time, we make tons of mistakes and stammer and we stutter and we forget information. Right? Anyone who loves SNL, love that show loved it because of all the mistakes they made.

Anne: Those were the funniest.

Lau: They were the funniest.

Anne: Those were the funniest.

Lau: They were hilarious. Right?

Anne: Yeah. Yeah.

Lau: It's like, you know, we always say, how do you determine the difference between an amateur and a professional? And it's easy. They both make mistakes and quite oftentimes a lot, but the amateur will fall apart. They'll melt down. They won't be able to function. The professional will do a little this and a little of that. Sorry about that. And then move on and use it, use it.

Anne: People are so forgiving. They really are. And again, like I said, if all you're thinking about is what you're sounding like and having that perfect voice, and then scrutinizing and, and hating yourself because you don't sound a particular way, think again. Because I was on stage too a long time ago, but also when I used to teach in front of students, right, I would get so excited -- like I was always told that I was a great teacher because I was so excited about the stuff that I was saying. Right? I was passionate. I was enthusiastic. I wanted to share. And that was what made me a good teacher.

And I oftentimes would stand up in front of the class. My brain would be going 100 miles an hour, but what came outta my mouth would be gobbledygook sometimes. But they forgave me.

I did not speak perfectly. Sometimes I like, oh, wait a minute. I forgot something. So imperfect. I had students who were so much more aligned with me and who really listened to me because I was imperfect. And I was able to admit that and be honest with them. And I never once tried to say, oh, I know more than you. I just wanted to inspire and motivate.

Lau: Right. Right.

Anne: And that is something I take behind the mic with me. No matter what genre I'm doing specifically though, e-learning, absolutely. I give my heart. Because that is, that is what people connect with.

Lau: Yes, absolutely.

Anne: But I cannot afford to listen to what I sound like. Or even if I go there a little bit when I'm editing -- so sometimes when I edit, yeah. I get a little tired of my voice. But then again, that's listening to myself and being nitpicking to get rid of breaths and stuff like that. And then it's just becomes tiring because I've been doing it for three hours. So that's different than not liking the way your voice sounds. And so I think you have to just have faith in the fact that you are in this industry, people are hiring you and paying you money for your voice. And that is giving you the validation that, you know what, you're probably doing a pretty good job. <Laugh> Otherwise you may not make any money. <laugh> You not be able to do that. So.

Lau: If you're not being invited back, and you have no bookings, and no one's working with you, then you'll say, oh, I have to evaluate this, what's going on. But you know, you have to psychologically be okay with living in the world of imperfection. You have to live -- certainly in the technical world. It's a tech glitch a minute. You have to be okay with living in the world of mistakes and the mar, the scar. Like the scar makes us interesting. Like, I don't want you to cover it up. I don't want you to laser it off. I don't want you to Photoshop it. I wanna see it. It's interesting to me. It's like your experience, you know?

Anne: It's that whole filter thing that's going on now, right? In social media, like are you prettier with the filter or without the filter? Guess what? You're pretty without the filter, you're pretty just as you are. <Laugh>

Lau: And you have to measure, you have to see, how am I measuring pretty? Like, what is my measurement for that? How deep do I go with that layer? And I'd like to think as we age and we get a little older and more experienced, we go deeper, deeper, deeper below the surface of the skin. We go like really deep and say, wow. There's a lot of beauty in there that I can bring out that is not aesthetically beautiful.

But that, like, I go back to Shakespeare, 'cause I think Shakespeare is everything, and the characters, especially the female characters, but the male characters as well, some of them are really dirty and gritty and ugly and -- but you can't play them until like you're 40 and you understand a little bit about life. You understand a little bit about the grit of experience. Maybe God forbid, you've lost a child. Maybe you've gotten divorced. Maybe you've lost money and then gotten money back. Like these things really can become beautiful lessons and stories in our life that we can share and message versus hide and cover.

And I like to think of scripts and copy in that way. It's like, if you're a mom or you took time off, let's say you took 20 years off and you're coming back, don't hide who you are. Don't hide your history. Bring your history to the table 'cause psychologically that's gonna give you a more authentic read in what you're doing potentially.

Anne: Yeah. And I'm also gonna say not to give the read that you think people expect of you. Again, what makes us interesting is our imperfections and our flaws. And so I highly, highly encourage and, and recommend BOSSes that you look beyond, like you were saying, beyond the surface, hashtag no filter. Right guys? Like we want those reads. We want those reads that are real and raw and don't have the pretty sound filter put on there. We should have a, a hashtag for that in social media for voiceover, hashtag no pretty voice or --

Lau: That's -- I love that.

Anne: You know what I mean?

Lau: I love that. And check, we do checks all the time. Check your psychology at the door. Check it. Like not over-analyze. You know, analysis can be paralysis, but, but really check it like, am I okay with not being perfect? And am I also okay with -- oh, here's another one, Anne. Not thinking I'm perfect. Because we don't wanna work with people that are so vain and so arrogant. And so like I did my takes. I'm all done. And if you don't like it, it's too bad. I wanna work with someone who they're 50, 60, 70, 80 years old. And they're like, I'm learning still. I'm exploring. I wanna develop. Can you share something with me? I'm not like done. I'm not finished. <laugh> I'm not like a final product myself. You know, I'm a work in progress.

Anne: Yeah, yeah. I don't think any of us really should think that way anyway. No matter what stage we're at. Right? Always something to learn.

Lau: Well, I think it always stops you. It stops your progress and what you could potentially learn and become when you just think that you have it all. You got it all down pat and it's polished and you know it. And that's a big question I get too in coaching, Anne, is like, should I go after this, Lau? Should I go after that? And I said, well, I don't know if you should go after it. Ask yourself the question authentically. How do you feel about it? How are you connecting with it? Where is your voice right now? I mean, I think you're asking the wrong question. I think the questions are really, how do I wanna develop my vocabulary right of knowledge?

Anne: How should I go after this? Or let's make a plan to go after this. And I think if the desire is there, hey, it's all part of the journey too. I'm a firm believer that, you know what? I would say to myself, well, I've never gone after animation because I don't know, for me right now, the passion is not necessarily in characters. But I'll tell you what, I'm a character in everything that I do. And I'm a character in medical narration. I am a character in corporate narration. I'm a character in commercial, and it just may not be as animated or cartoon-like, but absolutely we are all actors. We are all characters.

Lau: And these days, you know in character work a lot of times, you know, in some of the largest scripts that we see coming through for Pixar and Disney --

Anne: It's real.

Lau: They just want real sounds. They want real VO. They don't even want character voices. They make a big note in bold, no character voices. And they said like the leads, these are the leads because we had, you know, A-List Hollywood actors playing these leads. So we wanted to hear who Ray Romano really is, who Tom Cruz really is, who Queen Latifah really is. So that's kind of trickled down, I think in a nice way to the larger population where character now means like, well, who are you? What's the authentic sound you make? That we -- we'll consider that a character.

Anne: Absolutely. I love this conversation.

Lau: It's inspiring. It really is.

Anne: So BOSSes out there, love your voice. Embrace it. Be real. Absolutely. All right. So Lau, I am so excited we had this conversation. I can't wait to have another conversation with you next week. So BOSSes out there, if you would like to make an impact and contribute to the communities that give back to you, find out more at And also a big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. I love ipDTL. It allows me and Lau to connect with you. BOSSes out there, find out more at Have an amazing week, guys, and we'll see you next week. Bye.

Lau: Bye.

>> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.