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The VO BOSS podcast blends solid, actionable business advice with a dose of inspiration for today’s voiceover talent. Each week, host Anne Ganguzza focuses on a specific topic to help you grow your #VO Business. Featuring guest interviews with industry movers & shakers, VO BOSS covers every facet of the voice landscape, from creating your business plan to choosing the best marketing tactics & tools. So tune in, listen up, and learn how to further your VO career!

May 19, 2022

Three days with VO industry experts + networking with peers? Sign us up! Anne gets the inside scoop on what’s in store for eVOcation 2022 with co-founders Jamie Muffett and Carin Gilfry. The three chat industry advice for newcomers + seasoned voice artists, what to expect at the conference, paying it forward, and how important it is to make education a lifelong journey!


>> It’s time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry’s top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let’s welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.

Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and today I am so excited to be here with amazing talents and founders of the popular eVOcation Conference, which is devoted to the business of voiceover, Jamie Muffett and Carin Gilfry. Thank you guys so much for joining me today.

Carin: Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here.

Jamie: Yeah. Thanks, Anne.

Anne: I am so excited to talk to you guys about all things, eVOcation, business voiceover, because I think you guys are such an amazing team. Like you've been together for a number of years, I'm gonna say at least that I've known about --

Carin: Yeah.

Anne: -- doing wonderful things for the voiceover community and supporting communities on Facebook with a wonderful conference that you're now having once or twice a year, I'm not sure. Um, we'll talk about that. <laugh>.

Carin: We're not really sure either, because I feel like as soon as we started this conference, then we had a global pandemic, and --

Anne: Yeah, right? Oh my gosh.

Carin: So now we're like, so what, what are we doing?

Jamie: Yeah.

Anne: Well, so before we get to talking about eVOcation, I'd like my BOSS listeners to find out a little bit about you guys. So if you guys wouldn't mind introducing yourselves tell the BOSSes a little bit about how you got into voiceover and then ultimately how you two met and started creating these wonderful community resources. Jamie.

Jamie: Carin, do you want to go -- oh.


Jamie: Too polite.

Carin: We're, we're just so polite.

Anne: You guys are so polite to each other. That's why I let you do that. <laugh>.

Jamie: All right. Well, I'm gonna take the lead <laugh>. I started voiceover in 2009 in the UK and knowing that I was gonna move to the US. So I sort of had this plan that was gonna sort of be a job that I could start in the UK and then try transition over. Um, only really had confidence in it because I had sort of recording knowledge. I was in the sort of studio world in the music industry. And so I knew how to record my voice. And I knew I was going to America where apparently they like English guy voices. <laugh>

So that's, that's all I had really coming in <laugh>. I started in the UK and then we moved over ,and then I sort of continued on and gradually moved away from music into voiceover. That sort of happened actually fairly quickly. Yeah, I do a whole different array of genres of voiceover, anything that requires British guy really that I'll throw my hat in the ring. And yeah, we connected, when was that? Probably, I don't know, like 2018?

Carin: 2017 maybe.

Jamie: Oh, maybe earlier. Oh, right. Yeah. Maybe 2017.

Carin: 'Cause I feel like it was around when Mahalia was born, my daughter, and she was born in 2017.

Jamie: Yeah. And it was actually --

Carin: Sometime around there.

Jamie: -- Tim Friedlander I think that introduced us, I think.

Carin: I think so.

Jamie: Because Tim shot me a message and was like, oh, you know, there's this lady in New York who's got this huge Facebook group for New York voice actors? I was like, no <laugh>. And so we connected that way and yeah, we just sort of got on well. And I've obviously got my podcast VO School, and she had her community, and we were talking and we was like, there's nothing really in New York aside from Carin's regular classes and things like that. There was nothing big in New York, which seemed crazy <laugh>. So that was sort of the sort of burgeoning discussion that eventually resulted in VOcation.

Anne: A-ha. Carin?

Carin: I was a theater kid. My dad's an opera singer. My parents are both performers, and really in my family, there are two options. You either become a teacher or a performer. And a teacher is really a kind of performer anyway <laugh>.

Anne: True.

Carin: And so I ended up going to school for opera. And then after being in the opera industry for a while, I, it just, it was so stressful. It's like being an opera singer is like being like an Olympic gymnast or something, or like a professional ballet dancer where you just have to be on top of your game all the time. And if you are even a little bit below what is considered absolute pro, then you're just like, you don't exist. So it was so stressful. And I had a friend who was narrating audio books, I thought, oh, that would be a great thing to do. I can use my voice. I can use my acting abilities. And so I got into voiceover that way.

What I didn't know, and this is part of the reason why we founded VOcation also is like all the other skills that you have to know in order to be a successful voice talent. You have to learn how to record yourself and edit yourself and negotiate your own contract. And you have to learn how to direct market and set up a website and make sure that your online casting profiles are set up in a way that meets all the algorithmic things that you need to meet on those sites. There's just so much, and I love every single part of it. The more I found that I could take the reins of my own career, the happier I was.

Because in so many parts of the performance industry, the entertainment industry, if you're a performer, you're kind of like waiting for gatekeepers to open doors for you. And in voiceover, yeah. I find that it's not that way. You can really build your own career the way that you wanna do it, and you don't have to wait for an agent or a manager or for winning a competition. You don't have to wait for any of those things. You just kind of jump in and go.

Anne: Amen. <Laugh>.

Carin: Yeah. And it's, and it's awesome.

Anne: That's one of the parts that I love about it as well. It's so refreshing to meet with a couple of people who probably love the business aspect of voiceover, as much as the creative and performance --

Carin: I love it so much.

Anne: -- aspect. And I love how you said it just, it becomes, it's your own. This is something that you can direct your own business. And it's one of the reasons why I kind of diverged into three different brands myself, because I wanted to follow each passion and have that as part of my business. And I think that, honestly, there's so many people that, it's so necessary, the business aspect of it, because I'm always saying that you can have the greatest voice in the world, but it doesn't mean anything if nobody knows about it. And so --

Carin: Exactly.

Anne: -- there's gotta be that aspect that you are being able to market yourself and create the business that you want in order to be successful in, hey, I gotta help pay the bills. That's for sure.

Carin: Yeah.

Anne: So.

Carin: The other thing that, what I love about voiceover is that there are so many ways to make a career. And like, I know that you, Anne, and I have totally different approaches to how we find work. Like, you are amazing at direct marketing. And you're great at marketing yourself and branding yourself. And you just said, you have three different brands. And I don't do any of that. I started on online casting sites. And I just love to audition. And I audition all day long. And I think both approaches are valid and both approaches can result in similar outcomes. And you know, now I work with agents and managers too, and I love that part of it too. But I think Christian Lance who's, if you don't know Christian Lance, he's like --

Anne: I do.

Carin: He's, yeah, he's a great voice talent. He said voice actors are kind of like drivers where like, if you say you're a driver, are you a race car driver, or are you an Uber driver or are you a truck driver or are you like, what kind of driver are you? It's the same with voiceover. There are just so many different ways to be a voice actor.

Anne: Yeah.

Carin: And that's why at VOcation, we bring a lot, lot of different people in to give you a lot of different approaches to doing the business of voiceover. And you take what works for you and you can toss out what doesn't work for you. So I like that.

Anne: I do too. I love it. Jamie, your thoughts?

Jamie: I agree.

Anne: One of those things that's so funny because at conferences, when you're given choices about what classes to take, there are always the performance classes and then there are like the business classes. I've noticed year after year, people are always going for those performance classes, yet what they really need <laugh> is the business aspect to it. So I can completely appreciate and love the whole concept of a conference just about the business of voiceover. And you guys have really did something successful. So talk to us a little bit about the evolution of the conference and how you guys came to be, and, and that first year, what was it like?

Jamie: Well, we didn't want to just put on another conference that already existed, because what's the point in that? You know, I know things are a little different now post-COVID or well, we're in COVID still, but at the time there were a whole bunch of conferences that, although in different locations, which is most important for a lot of people in terms of access. The offering was kind of similar, you know? I mean, you'd go to one conference and the similar kind of speakers. So we wanted to do something a bit different. And like you said, a lot of conferences, people are so drawn to the performance type classes and panels and things like that. The -- they're like the sort of fast food <laugh>.

Anne: Yeah, right? The candy.

Jamie: Yeah. The candy.

Anne: Yeah, the candy.

Jamie: And we are like, we're like the broccoli.

Anne: Yes, exactly. Oh my God.

Carin: We're totally the broccoli.

Anne: <Laugh> yeah. I love it.

Jamie: But if you go to a conference and or you go to a restaurant and it's like a salad bar, like you're gonna indulge in the salad like that you're not even gonna worry about all the other stuff. So that's, that's what we are. We're the salad bar.

Anne: The salad bar.

Jamie: Yeah.

Anne: But I love broccoli. I'm just saying.

Jamie: Yeah, I do too actually,

Anne: See, there we go.

Jamie: I dunno why people hate it.

Carin: Delicious.

Anne: There we go. So we love broccoli. So therefore we love the whole --

Jamie: Yeah, that's the big takeaway from this.

Anne: There you go. We love broccoli <laugh>.

Jamie: So yeah. We're broccoli.

Anne: <laugh>

Jamie: Shall I expand on that?

Anne: Yes. Expand on what was the first year like, and did you have it, I think you had an in-person conference, right? The first year?

Jamie: Yes. We did Symphony Space on the upper west side in New York. You know, the other thing we wanted to do is we wanted to hold it in the city. Like not in an airport like 10 miles outside of town. And that, you know, brings its own challenges. You know, you're having to bring stuff in and shepherd people around, put them where they need to go.

Carin: And it's a lot more expensive.

Anne: Oh, I was just gonna say, I can't imagine the cost of having it in the city.

Carin: Yeah. Renting space in New York is a whole thing. It's and actually Symphony Space is wonderful because they cater to a lot of nonprofits and I mean, we're, we're not a nonprofit, but they cater to a lot of like, you know, smaller groups, and renting a theater was much better for us than renting an event space. Event spaces are just crazy in New York. Yeah. We love Symphony Space.

Jamie: Yeah. And we were sort of feeling it out as we went really. It was our first big event that we put on. And, um, for both of us, we, neither of us had been to a voiceover conference before. We'd been to conferences, but not voiceover. So we didn't really have something to compare it to, but it was such a fulfilling weekend. And, you know, we think based on the feedback, everyone had a at time.

So yeah, it was, it was really good. We had a whole array of business classes and panels that some were very genre based. Some were, you know, marketing, some were more businessy like tax and stuff like that, and negotiation and things like that. So there's still a huge amount of scope even within this sort of limited niche conference spare to explore lots of different avenues. Like you said, there's just so much, there's so much to it. So every year, maybe not thematically, but we'll dive into different aspects. And, you know, because like Carin said, there is no definitive one path through this industry. So you really have to sort of present, uh, many of the options as possible to people. And then they draw out what is appropriate to them and what sort of fits in their career.

Anne: What I love about that is because there is no one clear path or right path to get into it, your conference is offering all of the options, and people that are just kind of finding their way in this industry, I think that's such an important resource for them to understand. Number one, as you both are saying, there's more than one path into success in voiceover, and having a resource that allows people to see all the different options, I think, is truly a wonderful thing. And I wish, you know, when I had gotten into voiceover back in the day, and I'm like, I'm old, there wasn't --

Carin: You're not that old.

Anne: Well, probably older than <laugh> I'd like to admit these days, but it's one of those things where there wasn't groups, there wasn't online groups. There were physical groups, but when you were just getting into voiceover, it was hard to find them. And so this has kind of evolved over the years. And I just love the fact that you guys have provided a resource solely dedicated to business, 'cause I'm a business geek. I'm fully so very excited that you guys are gonna be continuing this and, and this year, even you're having a, a virtual conference and I think an in-person conference, is that correct?

Carin: We are.

Anne: Cool.

Carin: Finally after three years, we're now gonna do a VOcation in person again in New York at Symphony Space in September --

Anne: Nice.

Carin: -- of 2022. And our virtual conference eVOcation is gonna be in June. And we're so excited that you're joining us, Anne.

Anne: Yes. Thank you. I'm honored and very excited to take part in this for the first year for the virtual conference. I'm excited. Now, Carin, you moved from New York --

Carin: I did.

Anne: -- to my neck of the woods, and I, and I'm originally from New York state myself and New Jersey. So now that you are in California, do you miss New York? Do you miss your peeps in New York? <laugh>.

Carin: I miss it so much. Oh my gosh. We left at the very beginning of the pandemic.

Anne: Yeah.

Carin: It was so crazy in New York at the very start.

Anne: Yes, oh, I know.

Carin: You know, we have two little kids and being in our little 800 square foot apartment with one bathroom and a potty training toddler and a baby and no backyard was like just impossible <laugh>. So we bought a house sight unseen and moved to Southern California, and this sounds really dumb. And I feel like maybe this is a bit of hyperbole, but it, I felt almost like, like a refugee. Like we left without saying goodbye to anyone.

Anne: Yeah, right.

Carin: Because we couldn't see anyone, and we just kind of bought a house and packed up our stuff and left within a few weeks, and we were not planning on it. And so for the first like year that were here in California, I love it. My family's close by, the weather's beautiful. The kids absolutely love it. But if I would see a picture of the New York skyline --

Anne: Oh I know <laugh>.

Carin: -- I just would burst into tears.

Anne: Yeah.

Carin: I just, I miss it so much. And what I miss about it most is the community of people that we built there.

Anne: Yeah.

Carin: Because voice actors of NYC, we were doing two or three in-person events a month with like 50 to 100 people every event. And they were almost all donation based. So, you know, a teacher would come, and people would just pay what they could. And then the teacher would take the whole donation amount except for the space rental. And you know, we got to know each other, like we would eat each other's cooking when we had a potluck, and we knew each other's family, and we met each other's spouses. And it was just such a beautiful, wonderful community. And I'm so excited to do VOcation in New York and to see my New York family again, 'cause I just, I miss them all so much.

Anne: I definitely miss New York. There's something about New York that I don't know. I love California. Don't get me wrong. And I'm probably not gonna move back to New York or New Jersey, but I have family back there. So there's really just something magical about it. And I love how you had a community. It reminds me of, you know, one of the reasons when I moved out west, I started the VO Peeps because I wanted a community because I didn't know people, and I wanted to meet people and just start a community out here.

So I get that community. I think that's something so important when you are first starting out in this business. It's important to have a sense of community because people helping people in like minded industry, I think it's wonderful that you have a, a group, and that group is also online. And I can really see the sense of family there. You guys take such good care. I'm in a lot of groups, and you guys really take care of your members. And I really admire that about both of you. And you're both really giving people. I noticed that this year there's like a trillion scholarships for the conference. I mean, talk to us a little bit about your scholarships for the conference.

Jamie: Well, yeah, it started originally at the very first event when Joe from Voice Actor Websites gave up his speaker fee to a ticket for the following year for someone, and he said, oh, just donate it to someone next year. I don't -- you don't need to pay me, which I thought was really a sweet thing. And then we mentioned that, and then quite organically people started offering, well, I'll pay for a ticket for someone. And then someone else saw that they did that. Then it just sort of snowballed. And then last year I think we had 15 scholarships that we gave out. And then this year we've had 27.

Anne: That's amazing.

Jamie: So 27 people, yeah, are getting to go to the conference that maybe they probably otherwise wouldn't have gotten to go to. So, you know.

Anne: So then let me ask you, because I've also offered scholarships through VO Peeps, and that's not a small thing. There's a lot of work. I mean, I love to be a provider of scholarships if I can, but there's also some work. And I think you guys, in order to just even offer the scholarships, what is the criteria for the scholarship? And then you have to judge, and that's always tough.

Carin: So we had 87 people apply for scholarships this year, and Jamie and I read through every single application. And it's just an online form. And you talk a little bit about your journey and voiceover, why you think you would be a good candidate for the scholarship, how you plan to give back to the community, if you get the scholarship, and then anything else we should know. And I have to say it was such a tough decision, and we awarded scholarships based on so many different things. People who had real financial need and seemed like real go-geters. People who've had like a really bad couple of years. People who just filled out their application so well and seemed like just amazing candidates who are just gonna take the next step into voiceover and have great success. It was just a real mix of all of those things. And we came up with 27 people that we agreed on <laugh> took a little while, but.

Jamie: Yeah, we had a whole process that we had to go through to get to that point.

Anne: I had a score sheet. And I love that you based it on financial need. And I, I really am a big proponent of offering scholarships to help people that really need it. And even if, like you said, if they've had a couple of tough years and judging that those entries are so difficult. I actually would have a different judging panel every year, which I never disclosed, but it became work for people. And I'm so grateful for the people that helped in the judging of that all because it is a lot of work. And, and I thought for myself, for me to just judge, it was tough without having someone else have a --

Carin: Yeah.

Anne: -- another objective view. So I would always get a team of people who would volunteer their time to judge. And so I love, love, love that you guys are doing scholarships and just, it warms my heart, it really does because I haven't had, uh, VO Peeps scholarship in, in the last year because I've kind of gotten on board with some other scholarships. And so I still once a year, try to give out scholarships for VO Peeps, for people that have a financial need. So kudos to you for that. So let's talk about your lineup this year. Who do you got coming? Yeah. And what sort of topics are you gonna be talking about?

Carin: Well, we have a lot of great people. Maria Pendolino of course is a rockstar. She's coming back.

Anne: She is.

Carin: <Laugh>

Anne: Total rockstar.

Carin: She's gonna give a talk called Non-broadcast Genre is the Foundation of Your House.

Anne: <Laugh> oh, nice.

Carin: Which is great.

Anne: Love it. Love it.

Jamie: I feel that's up your street, Anne <laugh>.

Carin: Yeah. I'm gonna be, uh, interviewing Mark Guss about the agent client relationship. Mark Guss of course is a manager at ACM talent, but he's been an, an agent as well. Amazing guy. We have a panel on all of the freelancer websites, including Fiverr and Upwork and --

Anne: Okay.

Carin: -- what they mean for our industry. And is there a way to use them ethically?

Anne: Sure. Love it.

Carin: We have a -- yeah. We have a working pros panel. What else do we have, Jamie?

Jamie: I think you should have prepped people that you were gonna say the Fiver word, 'cause if someone's driving while they're listening to this, they'll probably just crash their car.

Carin: <laugh> Yeah, that panel is called We Don't Talk About Fiverr, No, No.

Anne: But we do, but we should.

Jamie: We should.

Anne: I think we should.

Carin: <sings> We don't talk about Fiverr.

Anne: <laugh> I'm kinda on board with that. I think there's too many people that aren't talking about it.

Carin: Yeah.

Anne: And there's too many people that don't talk about other things like synthetic voices. And I think that that's important.

Carin: Yeah.

Anne: Because how do we prepare ourselves for that --

Carin: Exactly.

Anne: -- influence in our industry? So, I mean, you can't ignore Fiverr. It's there.

Jamie: Yeah.

Anne: And other assorted, you know, maybe freelance communities that are maybe not desirable in some people's eyes. I think like you said, Carin, there's multiple paths.

Carin: Exactly.

Anne: And I am not here to judge. <Laugh> To be honest. I mean, we run our own businesses. I think that there's principles that we should all maybe try to strive for and knowing your worth, which is I think at the top of the list, I think that that's definitely something that you have to understand, but then we all run our own businesses.

Carin: I think so much of knowing your worth just comes from an education.

Anne: Yeah. Agreed.

Carin: When I started, I didn't even know that there were agents that were sending people out for auditions. Like, I didn't know there was a union that I was supposed to join. I didn't know anything. All I knew is that I did a Google search and I found these online casting sites, and they were offering $100 for only a 30-second commercial? That's like, so little time. Right? I just had no idea <laugh>

Anne: I get it.

Carin: I had no idea what the rates were.

Anne: So totally get that.

Carin: Yeah. And that's how people start. They go on Fiverr because that's like the thing to do if you're a freelancer, and they don't know about the GVAA rate guide.

Anne: Right.

Carin: They don't know that you're supposed to be getting higher rates. And I think when you know, then you charge more.

Anne: Yeah.

Carin: So I think is a huge part of it.

Anne: Yeah.

Carin: And we can't fault people for not knowing what the industry standards are. The only thing we can do is educate, you know, lovingly guide them to charge more if they can.

Anne: I agree. I got on the pay-to-plays back when they were first starting and they worked for me. But before the pay-to-plays, there was And I don't even know if it was called that, but that was, if you wanna talk about people who underbid in order to get a job, the earliest freelancer was people would go post their jobs, and the person that bid the lowest won. And I was on that. I'm not saying that could be considered the Fiverr of today maybe.

Carin: Yeah.

Anne: But I didn't know.

Carin: Right, exactly.

Anne: And again, it was, I didn't have the education. There weren't the online communities like there were, and I found out and I learned thankfully, you know, that I was worth and I was worthy of charging a fair rate. And ultimately I evolved into the mindset, know your worth. And I think as influencers with the podcast that we are putting out there as a resource, with the conferences, eVOcation, I think that it's wonderful that we are putting out resources to educate people about knowing their worth. And that's all we can do really <laugh>.

Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's only part is part of the offering as well. So you may hear discussions about Fiverr and Freelancer and what have you. And, and then you learn about some of the other avenues, direct marketing. And then you determine where your journey, where your path lies. That's sort of the, the beauty of this, this industry. And you know, with some of the online discussions, particularly not to make this all about Fiverr, but with some of the online discussions, you, you even mention that, and you're immediately pounced upon, you know?

Anne: Oh, I know.

Jamie: There is no discussion --

Anne: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: -- why it's bad, et cetera. But the other thing is that for me, I think if you've been in the industry for five plus years, you don't know what it's like to start in 2022. The landscape is different now to how it was five plus years ago. So we really should have those discussions to educate us who are more established as to what the lay of the land is in a sort of earlier phase. So yeah, we got a whole bunch of stuff. We got casting panels, rates and usage.

Anne: Wow.

Jamie: You're teaching the email marketing class, and social media, we've got Natalie.

Carin: Yeah. Natalie Natus. She's so great.

Jamie: Yeah.

Carin: She's an audiobook narrator who has like just kind of exploded on TikTok and --

Anne: Fantastic.

Carin: -- very funny and wonderful. So she's talking about social media, all good stuff.

Jamie: And we've got Voice Actor Websites' crew talking all about how to optimize your website and separately, how to work your SEO because they're two sides of the same coin, but you can't have one without the other, if you really wanna, you know, your website to work. So yeah. There's other stuff too, but we won't go through everything. <laugh>.

Anne: Well, it sounds like a fantastic lineup. And what are those dates?

Jamie: eVOcation is June 10th, 11th and 12th.

Carin: Yes.

Anne: Got it.

Jamie: Three days.

Anne: Your in-person one, you're kind of scoping out for the fall, is that correct?

Carin: We have the dates actually, September 10th and 11th.

Anne: Fantastic.

Carin: In New York city. And I'm pretty sure tickets are gonna go on sale in July for that one. So keep an eye out, and we actually have another kind of secret thing that we'll announce at the conference as well about something coming up in 2023.

Anne: Awesome.

Jamie: Yeah.

Carin: We won't tell you here, but it's a fun secret.

Jamie: It's just a tease.

Carin: This is just a tease.

Anne: <Laugh> I love secret things.

Carin: Yes.

Anne: All right.

Jamie: Tease from the broccoli.

Anne: I'm so excited BOSSes. Really, this is a conference I think everybody should go to this conference. Everybody in voiceover should go to this conference. <laugh>

Jamie: I agree.

Anne: It's just, yeah. Such a wonderful resource for the community. Thank you, guys, so much for doing this, for your generosity. You guys are just amazing for being such a support in the community. I really appreciate that. I see it all the time. You guys are just so wonderfully supportive and that is a wonderful thing. So my last question would be, if you guys had one tip to give to the BOSSes about being successful in their voiceover career, what would that be?

Carin: I would say my best tip is find the thing that works well for you and works well for your brain and lean in to that. So if you find that you absolutely love direct marketing, lean into that and do it to the best of your ability. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, of course, but really, really put focus and attention and love into that. If you find that you love auditioning, put your focus and attention and love into that and find the thing that makes you love voiceover and makes you love going to work every day and lean into that thing. And that will help you to love your job and be successful.

Anne: Awesome.

Jamie: Yeah. And I've been thinking a lot lately, well, the last of year or so about how I interpret specs, and I've sort tried to change my approach to it. Rather than trying to twist myself into a pretzel to be the person that I think they want me to be, I use them as just ingredients into the soup of my brain that is trying to interpret what this project is. And then I give them my natural, authentic interpretation of that and the most real thing that I can offer, rather than getting too hung up the adjectives and the references and things like that. So I know that's not to do with business, but it's just something I've been thinking about a lot lately. And I saw an immediate uptick in bookings as a result of changing that mindset.

Anne: Awesome. That's awesome. No, I think that's amazing. Thank you, guys. If anybody wants to get in touch, if the BOSSes wanna get in touch with you, how can they get in touch with you guys individually? And also what again is that URL for the conference, should they want to buy tickets?

Carin: Yes. If you want to buy tickets for the conference, you can go to, and I am @CarinGilfry at -- on all the socials.

Jamie: And I am Jamie Muffett on Instagram and all that jazz. And you can find my website,

Anne: Thank you so much. And again guys, eVOcation tickets are on sale. Go get them, very important, BOSSes. <laugh> I'd like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor. ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes like we are today. Find out more at You guys, have an amazing week, and we'll see you next week. Bye.

Carin: Bye. Thank you.

Jamie: Thank you.

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